Ok so would you mind answering the question of
The Horde has no ideals, the Horde has an honour culture that only applies to orcs, and the orc honour culture isn’t even well-defined and changes from clan to clan. Blackrock clan think it’s honourable to die in battle against a hated enemy, that’s all Saurfang wanted, that was his honour code. His honour code never applied to Sylvanas, she even outright calls his honour ‘suicide’ in A Good War. There is no honour in suicide, and she’s right.
Being “good” isn’t always being right.
The Horde originally believed that it was dishonorable to go against your Warchief and that being in the Horde was about loyalty, even if that Warchief was unhinged. Saurfang and Eitrigg and Nazgrim almost got killed in the Horde civil war, only Saurfang and Eitrgg realized in the final hour they were wrong.
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But how you interpret it is a distortion of the lore, and the message behind it.
Saurfang - just like Drek’Thar - condemned the DEEDS of the undead, and not per se because they were undead, he wanted nothing to do with this dishonorable war. Saurfang was anti-sylvanas because of her deeds, not because she was a woman.
It had nothing to do with hatred of women, just as Saurfang - when he said that his son died in Wrathgate - that what they fought in ICC was no longer his son, but only his body, and he was right about that, it was a slave of the Lich King. The real Dranosh would never have raised his hand to fight against the Horde. The real Dranosh would not have made himself a slave of the LK, that was all therefore no longer the real Dranosh.
that was alleria, not her…she cleansed the remaining rest after the horde traveled further against lordaeron, and only one or two clans were remaining.
And that’s wrong, isn’t it? That is the CRITIC that it is wrong that they did that, so why now integrate the other which is ALSO wrong.
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As a those people, no, its not.
Before this big beefy boy, I main’d a Forsaken lock for the better part of 6-8 years. The Forsaken very much stood out to me because of their outcast status, because things are not always pretty, because we need to do things sometimes that are not always ‘right,’ because there was a world, and still is, who’d rather see me actually dead than anything else.
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The Orcs concept of honor applies to the Tauren and Trolls as well. As nebulous as it is, honor is part of the Horde’s foundation.
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Talk to any Horde player and we disagree with that. Those are the conversations Horde players had all through BFA, go back and look at Baal’s How to Redeem the Horde Thread. That was one of the biggest topics amongst Horde players, this idea that the Horde is somehow defined by a universal moral code. The Alliance is, but the Horde isn’t, that’s what makes the Horde a challenge because it’s trying to unify vastly different races with different morals.
The Tauren, Orcs, Trolls all share qualities, but that also ostracizes them from the newer races, that’s why we get this division between the “old” and “new” Horde. The biggest issue the Horde will always face is how we are all going to be on the same page when the majority can’t agree on anything. That’s why being a loyalist was luring people into cognitive dissonance because at the start of BFA Sylvanas’s motives were about multiculturalism and “strength in unity” She even says the following before the battle for Undercity…
"The Horde has seen many rivals in this world. Some call us enemies… some outcasts. But we find strength in unity… and in defiance to those who would challenge out freedom. "
And during when Saurfang gives up and chooses to essentially let the Alliance kill him.
“Maybe you don’t care if your people die so long as it is honourable. But to me the Horde is worth saving, and anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us.”
How can you read the above statements and find a reason to hate Sylvanas or think Loyalists were not being misled.
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And what exactly am I supposed to do with this information? Crap people exist, and? There were/are people at Blizzard who would deny me basic civil rights on the account that I’m a woman, do I need to parade women’s rights and start seeing everything as an offense to women’s rights? What would that accomplish? I won’t change those types of people.
EDIT: OK so I didn’t realize which part of my post you were replaying to, and accidentally turned it into something else. So to address the part which I think you are referring to… You are completely free to identify whit whomever or whatever you want to, but there would be a lot of LGBT+ people, and i do know a few who would think this way, that comparing them to essentially a zombie curse, or a a people that are missing certain emotions, tastes etc. would find this offensive. Especially considering the Forsaken are in fact not innocent people that are getting hate for simply existing. That is one reason why you should not insert identity politics into everything, you have one reading of the story while others have another.
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You’re wrong.
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It could be a rejection for any reason, including being LGBTQIA+, or religious differences.
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I think you’re missing the point. You’re writing off Drek’Thar as a bigoted meanyhead for not supporting death metal zombie expansionism, misconstruing his moral opposition to blighting the land as racial intolerance. The text never presented it that way.
Besides, you really think that “treason” somehow vindicates the cosmic betrayal Sylvanas committed against the Horde? The entire “battle for Azeroth” was a con job, instigated by Sylvanas and Big Arthas to get as many living things killed as possible.
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He refused with dishonorable allies. He refused to work with those whose methods reminded him of the evils of the original horde. The forsaken at this time had killed civilians intentionally and use the blight. (Which as a shaman; he would oppose the use of blight) edit: use of blight and destruction of the land would be an affront to the elements and would not mesh with a druid or a shaman.
Edit 2: It’s like asking the Cenarions to be cool with the venture company polluting and help them.
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But he wasn’t. He was the repentant soldier. He was basically a Vietnam movie, but set in the World of Warcraft. Queue the CCR and make his son a double amputee instead of a DK, and it might as well be any movie about Vietnam.
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While that is definitely the point, the forsaken could be forgiven for interpreting it otherwise. In fact, while BfA did hint at increased racial sensitivity toward the forsaken in the opening warfront questline, AGW did make it clear that Saurfang was prejudiced against his undead Warchief, and that Nathanos believed Sylvanas victories were overshadowed by orc prejudice.
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Not until the story was polluted. Clearly they retconned A LOT from BFA. In fact, even the little wink wink hint hints in AGW between Nathanos and Sylvanas seem tacked on with hardly any polish like a last minute addition.
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How can the quests in Cataclysm not be interpreted that way by the people who are doing it? The leveling process shows them expanding outwards.
Which ones exactly?
To be fair…Drek’thar and Saurfang both helped to slaughter innocent draenei women and children on Draenor. I always found both to be hypocrites.
Feeling sorry for a genocide you willingly participated in years later, doesn’t make him a good person. Both should be the last people on azeroth handing out judgments on peoples morality or lack thereof
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I think thats the theme of AGW, actually.
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YES, thank you Mawthorne. There was also the meeting between Baine, Hammul. Sylvanas and Magni where Sylvanas notes clear disrespect from Baine. She tells him he cannot share Horde secrets with the Alliance because that’s treason and tells him “if you run to the Alliance and tell them what we do, we will lock you up as a traitor.” and when Derek happened he did just that, he ran to Jaina and shared the Horde plans and somehow that was twisted into Sylvanas being the Bad Guy for protecting Horde assets and plans from a known traitor.
Big time. Especially since Sylvanas manufactured the whole situation to be an orc victory, around orc and Night Elf conflict. She handed the Orcs the victory they have wanted since they first invaded Ashenvale, and they still hated her.
The entire Forsaken storyline.