And Saurfang was portrait to be very remorseful of the fact. Ofc this is my reading of the character and I cannot verify if Blizzard intended it to be this way or not, but what I got from it was “I did some very messed up stuff and I want to prevent other people from repeating my mistake”. Learning from ones mistakes is a very human thing and I don’t see it as hypocrisy. And seeing how someone already made the connection between Saurfang and Vietnam vets, would you call war veterans that became peace advocates and activists after their service as hypocrits aswell ?
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I am merely saying that Drek thar is refusing to do more harm and doesn’t want to be the monster that he was, again. That helping the forsaken given their actions would violate his desire to not be a monster again.
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It still makes you a better person than the one is who currently commiting genocide and doesn’t feel bad about it.
The fact that they did it themselves once doesn’t mean they can’t point out it’s wrong to do.
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Because they do not want to repeat such an act, they are hypocrites? Because they have learned from their experience and their mistakes, and do not want to repeat such a thing under any circumstances…then they are hypocrites?
and both were tricked by the legion, and influenced by demons, saurfang even drunk demonblood.
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Does it? Really? Saurfang WILLINGLY committed TWO genocides. The dudes the very definition of a hypocrit
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Oh no you don’t. She wanted the Sythe specifically so the worgen curse would spread thoughout humanity. She wanted vengence on all of humanity back in Cata after her post-death experience, not just Arthas.
To further your point, Saurfang saw the Horde as being tricked by Sylvanas into going to war. That is what he meant when he said “ruining his Horde”. In his eyes she was destroying all the progress they had made all these years and turning them into the their original form, a tool of war.
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Than how do you explain Saurfang planning the War of Thorns than?
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can you provide a source for that?
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The entire forsaken storyline is finding a way to sustain themselves, and successfully executing Garrosh’s invasion of Gilneas, before moving on to Hilsbrad to secure lands they won in TM v SS, and hold them against resistance.
The only way anyone could think that was forsaken expansionism would be if they only experienced the entire worgen storyline.
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Sylvanas was suspicious because she knew that Saurfang was the biggest danger for her plan, with him everything stood and fell, the old fool only let her convince him, the wound that never healed, he was the target of this wound.
It was never about the night elves, it was about him, about the symbol he was for the Horde, and this symbol was destroyed by the PLAN HE planned, and thus after Teldrassil burned (something he never planned) he was incapable of continuing to stand by the Horde led by SYLVANAS. he died …by trying to show the horde who sylvanas really is…a undead monster that must be stopped.
He never planned a genocide, that is wrong, that was sylvanas.
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Because HIS warchief ordered him to. Why do soldiers commit atrocities in war, is it because they are evil or is it because they believe they are fighting for their country. Sylvanas tricked the Horde into starting a war (and I will say this again the Horde are morons for believing the whole “pre-emptive war to stop a future war” reasoning), in his eyes he was doing it for the Horde, shortly after he realized that Sylvanas did not have the Hordes best interest in mind and he defected. Also the genocide came from Sylvanas, his plan was on how to defeat and occupy the Night elves not on exterminating them.
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Saurfangs a hypocrite and he died as one.
When doing the Forsaken storyline, the player is going with the Forsaken through the zones, working on completely taking them over. Every Forsaken zone shows them taking territory they didn’t have before. That’s expansionism.
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He was a hypocrite, he saw that himself, the wound that never heals, that was the destruction of his own symbolism that he had built up, the reputation.
But he was not a hypocrite in that he found violence cool, he was a hypocrite in that he thought there was a war for the Horde against an enemy who actually only wants peace, who could be HONORABLE, no, there is not.
But his last deed was to spit sylvanas in the face to show the world/horde her true face and it was an success.
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Yes. It does. It really honestly 100% does. Did you even read the link?
The (fallacious) tu quoque argument follows the template (i.e. pattern):[2]
- Person A claims that statement X is true.
- Person B asserts that A’s actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
- Therefore, X is false.
As a specific example, consider the following scenario where Person A and Person B just left a store.
- Person A: “You took that item without paying for it. What you did is morally wrong!”
- Here, X is the statement: “Stealing from a store is morally wrong.” Person A is asserting that statement X is true.
- Person B: “So what. I remember when you once did the same thing. You didn’t think it was wrong and neither is this.”
- Person B claims that Person A is a hypocrite because Person A once committed this same action.
3. Person B has argued that because Person A is a hypocrite, he does not have a right to pass sentences on others before judging himself.
Relative part highlighted. And yes, Saurfang has already judged himself guilty of genocide.
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The Horde has been a war machine forever.
The Horde destroyed Quel’thalas
The Horde destroyed Stormwind
The Horde destroyed Gilneas
The Horde destroyed Theramore
the Horde destroyed Ashenvale
The Horde destroyed Azshara
The Horde is only a war machine. I’m not disillusioned to the point where I believe the Horde has never done anything bad ever. The Horde is a dangerous war machine. The Horde is a threat to Azeroth. The only redeeming quality the Horde has is if they can be used as a weapon to protect Azeroth instead of destroy Azeroth, then they can find redemption.
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This was only a brief lapse, a flailing of a man loosing his religion, against a convenient scapegoat-- the non-orc at the helm. Before the mok-gora, Saurfang acknowledged that Sylvanas didnt ruin his horde. She was the logical spiritual successor to Blackhand. The era of Thrall was a strange departure for the horde. Even Saurfang believed in the myth of a good war, and every time it escaped him, he blamed the leader, or the methods, or anything else. Not until right before his death did he realize that it wasnt any of those things, but fighting in general that makes a good war impossible.
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is it really expansionism if you are only claiming what you had before? The Lordaeron Forsaken reclaiming their home is not expansionism. Except for fighting Alliance in Arathi, which was not ethical but was also not Sylvanas, the attacks on Arathi were lead by Varimathras. Sylvanas was more concerned with reclaiming the Plaugelands from the Scourge and recovering Nathanos.