I genuinely believe that they are more comfortable now writing that race than they ever were before; and that’s largely thanks to the immensely positive response to Zappyboi and the Zandalar Questing Experience. Had only one of these two things happened, or neither, I have no doubt in my mind that Bwon would have gotten smashed hard with the villain bat. But … Blizz seems to have realized people are very on board with positive portrayals of Trolls at least now, so we have our current iteration of Bwon. A man who loves playing with the living, but takes his duty to the dead extremely seriously. As should be.
Now if only we can get Blizz more comfortable with other races. There are amazing (and positive) stories you can tell with the Forsaken and Tauren Racial Fantasies. Shame Blizz seems so “All or Nothing” on the first, and way too uncomfortable writing the second outside Baine. Who’s relegated to a plot device for Anduin, rather than getting Tauren related personal story arcs.
I have some naïve hopes for Sunwalker Dezco. Maybe they will be bold enough to turn his appearance into a quest or even a questline. I would have imagined we would see more Spiritwalkers in Shadowlands, though. You know, to show that they are more than just crazies that spend too much time in the smoke hut. They probably could have just passed on putting Baine in Shadowlands.
We’ll see. The kid is long overdue for a personal character arc, and Cairne did promise his son they’d get to talk more in depth soon in the Heritage Quest. Plus, Huln Highmountain is randomly hanging around Ardenweald, despite him having died like 1k years ago. And that guy was my second choice to help Baine grow up and balance out a bit. Which … he’s not overdue for IMO, but its getting there.
Baine had essentially had his weaknesses thrust into his own face several times over in the intro and Torghast, and for the first time in ages his need to be a “Token Good Horde Plot-Device” is not required. So, if there was a time to finally do something with him … SLs would be the time. He’s got means, motive, and opportunity. In the right setting. And this applies to Dezco as well.
Who knows? We got 3 gates in Oribos left, and there aren’t any function oriented SLs we still have to worry about. Maybe we’ll luck out and get a Spirit Worship themed one to pump up some Tauren lore. Both those Cows could benefit from that. I’d like to dive into Earthmother and Spiritwalker content tbh. Plus, the Wildhammer also revere the Earthmother … so Dwarf Content as well (they certainly need it too).
Why? I mean, you already told me you are incapable of seeing why someone might interpret the story other than you do. Quotes won’t convince you because you have already decided on your reading of them and you’ve announced that you’re not even able to see any other interpretation than the one you already hold. You’re not even open to seeing the other interpretation, let alone buying it (note, they’re not the same thing).
It’s not so much that I hold the alternate reading of EoN even after BtS/BfA. It’s more that I think the options were open until BtS/BfA started closing them off.
(But even then, sorry, “arrows in my quiver” and “bulwark against the infinite” just don’t stir the same reaction in me that they apparently do in you. They just don’t.)
Because until you have a reason for me to open my eyes up to the possibilities, then there isn’t really a reason for me to invest in them. Thus, what parts of EoN show that other interpretation.
I can accept there were other facets of Sylvanas’ characterization, but EoN was pretty damning IMO. It portrays a bitter woman who sees other as objects for personal use; and regardless if she comes to care for her property in some twisted way, that care will never come before their need to be a useful tool for her. In essence, she’s just Gallywix, without the integrity to be honest about it. And as a Gob fan who’s spent over a decade being led by who we knew was our “abuser” and antagonist … its weird to see Sylvie hide that she’s the same to the Forsaken with so little effort. Largely behind her tragedy and looks.
My guess is that Mueh’zala was shoved into Bwon’s spot, hence the sudden “I did this and this and this” info dump at the end of his dungeon. It makes an ugly sort of sense that Vol’jin would listen to Bwonsamdi’s suggestion of making Sylvanas warchief than him hearing a random spirit’s voice and going entirely off of that.
Edit: And yeah, what I heard is that Bwon was only spared because the writers loved the way the voice actor did his lines, and the playerbase latching onto him cemented it.
I don’t get it. What were they thinking.
“Yeah, we will kill the Troll faction leader one expansion… and then after that, we’ll make the Darkspear loa a villain and kill him too!!!”
It’s not what shows the other interpretation. It’s the fact that the lines you quoted are open to other ways of weighting and judging. I’m not asking you to change your reading of the story; I just said I wished you could understand the fact other people don’t agree with your reading. And you flat-out said you’re incapable of that. Either people read the story exactly the way you do, or they’re wrong. There’s nothing to engage with there.
I am, she commited genocide and tortured and destroyed the souls. I don’t want the burning of Teldrassil, Gilneas and many other crimes to be painted as good and heroic things.
If Sylvanas gets a redemption and even more expansions, she’ll be a mary sue at this point
A. There’s some truth to what he’s telling her
B. She believes he’s telling the truth but he’s not
C. She realize that the Jailer is lying and everything is his fault and will turn against him
I’m hoping its A. In any case I’m so ecstatic that she decided to do something about this faulty afterlife system.
I’ll take boring and predictable redemption over boring and predictable villain anyday.
People can interpret it however they want, but unless you’re willing to give me something substantive that gives weight to that interpretation … well … people around the world interpret that the world is flat. Should I be open to their interpretation just because they interpret the world that way?
Until you can give me some reasonable positive spin on her literally calling her people her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” tools & then discarding them to their deaths when she no longer needed them … all you’re doing is twisting a pretty damning story to give her the benefit of the doubt. For no other reason than you want to give her that benefit, because it maintains a vision of her character that that damning story infringes upon. The Image of Sylvie built up from WC3, the one recontextualized by EoN.
And again, I will admit that there were other facets to her characterization and avenues for her to go because of that; but not from this story. Because, more important than anything else, what EoN did NOT do is give her a reason to actually care about her people. It only gave her a reason to need to use them again. Just as her being forced into the Warchief chair she didn’t even want did not automatically serve as an impetus for her to start caring for the Horde. There was no proper catalyst for change established.
Those are changes people merely assumed occurred, for no other reason than they wanted them to.
Droite, Pellex’s objection is that your statements and the way you approach the topic in general makes it appear that you are not at all open to changing your mind - therefore, having any argument and going to the trouble of finding the evidence you keep demanding is a waste of time, because you are not approaching the discussion from a place of good faith. Rather, it reads as an aggressive “Change my mind” approach where your mindset is to shoot down any alternative interpretations.
I know you’re going to reply “But Pellex hasn’t provided evidence to the contrary” but I am telling you that the way you come off on this topic is very hostile and not conducive to discussion, so I can see why non-Treng posters wouldn’t want to bash their heads against your absolutism.
But this is ALL I’m asking for! All I’ve ever asked for on this topic! And no one can actually tell me what parts of EoN reaffirm that kinder interpretation for her, unless you’re going into that story WANTING to give her the benefit of the doubt? Every time this exact topic is brought up its “Well, I interpreted it like this, but I can’t actually use the text as it is written to back that interpretation. Why can’t you just be open to it?”
Give me something substantive to latch onto, or stop trying to use EoN to defend your version of Sylvanas. There are plenty of other texts and content about her that includes different characterization aspects you can make decent arguments off of. I will admit that. But until then, with this one short story, until Pell can point it out … what it seems like they’re doing is twisting the content of that story to fit a pre-established image of Sylvanas; rather than allowing that content to influence and shape that image of her.
Being open to other people’s interpretations is like a cornerstone of debating! What’s the point of having a discussion if you aren’t going to at least entertain the opinions of others?
Here’s something I’ve heard, even if it wasn’t originally my interpretation: people hear “arrows in the quiver” and think of something disposable because they aren’t familiar with archery. But, a well-made arrow is something that someone who actually USES them isn’t just going to discard without thought. Why do you think there are actual quests in the game to retrieve intact arrows that were fired? Because they’re actually kind of important. Someone who’s purportedly had their positive emotions stripped away might not be able to approach any further to a positive comparison than useful tools, but I can guarantee anyone who thinks tools are something to be discarded when you’re done with them has never actually thought about the use of tools. They are valuable and should be well taken care of. I think the pop-culture corruption of “tool” as a person rather than an item has led to this interpretation.