The story that completely recontextualized her entire relationship with her Forsaken up until the Fall of Arthas is no big deal? Where it was revealed that the Sylvie up until then was just a mask she put on to manipulate her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” into being useful tools for her revenge? And that any care she may have had for them never came before their need to be useful for her? And her knowlingly throwing them in the trash when she didn’t need them anymore?
OK … if you say so.
What blizz did to Sylvanas character is absolutely criminal in every sense of the word. EoN was soo much better when the Val’kyr simply didn’t want to be bound to Bolvar and were looking to strike a bargain with Sylvie simply because it wasn’t her time to pass on to the other side.
The forced retcons to make Sylvanas a unlikeable person…is the worst of it all. Her sudden mustache twirling 4D Grand Master Evil chess moves don’t feel organic at all.
Am I the only one who came out of that story thinking those Primes were suss as hell? They had all the bargaining power in the world in that deal, and they threw it all away for enslavement to Sylvanas … until they eventually, inevitably took her place in hell. And considering 5 of 9 of the buggers were already iced by Cata, that deal appeared on the surface horrific for them. On top of their total, and seemingly deliberate lack of Characterization keeping them complete mysteries.
If you came out of EoN thinking she wasn’t an absolutely horrible person, or wondering what would happen to her Forsaken if her Bulwark ever ceased to be sufficient use, I don’t know what to tell you? And even if her greatest superpower was “plot convenience”, that doesn’t always have to mean that that is the case.
By that point he was Ner’zhuls little DK puppet. The real Arthas (his soul) was trapped inside Frostmourne.
The events leading up to him picking up Frostmourne was on his own free will, even if he was being manipulated by Ner’zhul via Mal’ganis and Kel’thuzad. But after he picked up the cursed blade, his soul was stolen and he became nothing more but a tool Ner’zhul could wield. Of course however, the DK Arthas would later usurp Ner’zhul. We wouldn’t see the real Arthas again until after Frostmourne was shattered and his soul returned to his body (for a short moment), and as he died, he was like a scared little kid running to his father for protection and relief, asking if the nightmare was finally over. Unfortunately, a fallen Angel would see to it that the Nightmare, the real Nightmare had just begun.
It would be like holding the PC DK’s (non allied race / Pandaren ones) accountable for their actions during the intro chain even though they were slaves to the Lich King.
Me and my friend always had a suspicion there was more to that deal than she was letting on. Especially with how quickly she lost 4 of them in a short time span. This is was of course before anyone knew the Jailer was essentially supplying her with a infinite number of forsworn.
As far as her bulwark against the living? I always assumed she was going to ditch them when they weren’t relevant to her cause. Sooner rather than later.
Oh,I get all that. I just making the point of wanting to see Arthas redeemed as a dumb idea. And I’m a major fanboy of his too.
And we know this “assumption” to be false as you can see souls that became undead and died again in the Shadowlands realms such as Bastion (as they used the forsaken undead model to represent their soul).
So being raised as an undead and dying again does not equal “to the maw with you!!!”. Which does lead into the theory that Sylvanas being sent to the Maw was not the Arbitors doing. After all, it is the Kyrians who ferry souls to the Arbitor, but as shown with the Val’kyr and realms like the halls of valor and Helhiem, a third party can intercept a soul before the Kyrians can. So given that sylvanas committed suicide at ICC, the remaining scourge Val’kyr already had the at home advantage to grab her soul.
I always thought there was more to the deal than THEY were letting on. I think now as I’ve always thought, those Primes were playing her in some way. What they offered her was way too convenient for her, wit seemingly very little pay off for them. If it was just a matter of binding themselves to someone not the LK, they had plenty of bodies floating around IC around that period. Instead, they chose the one person at a moment of suicidal weakness and “saved her from a convenient trip to Hell that terrified her to her core”?
Honestly, I always got the impression that while the Forsaken started that story as a witless tool, and ended as a witless tool … Sylvanas ended that way too.
Gonna be honest I think the sylvanas stuff about her being in contact is the machinations of Helya instead of the arbiter, Helya is implied to have control over some kyrians, (valkyr etc) and is clearly shown to be able to make servants to herself, so there is no reason not to believe that the jailer saw through Lich king stuff Sylvanas, and then saw her as someone he could use that was alive on azeroth and part of the Factions.
Though that theory makes me fear that blizzard might have Arthas getting killed or something by Sylvanas. but idk.
It certainly lines up, with what we know now. I do get the feeling though that the Jailer is merely playing a long con game with Sylvanas, and as soon as her usefulness to his plans are used up, he’s going to toss her aside like all the other toys of his.
Oh, absolutely. There would also be a bit of thematic karma with her being the victim of her own sort of tactics she’s used so often on others; as well as that classic Greek irony that the steps he took to avoid her Fate, being the very ones that likely condemned her to it. If this is the route they take her though, its the key reason I don’t see her ending up a Loot Pinata.
At some point the truth will be revealed that it wasn’t the Arbiter system that put her there, and she’ll be discarded. Then she’ll adopt the Vengeance Colors that she has always sported very effectively. Her survival may be questionable if they take her this way, and she will not be rejoining the Horde no matter what … but at least she may go out as “Not a Villain”. Even if she’ll never be a Hero again.
I do agree with that. I don’t see blizz making her a raid boss. Most likely they will have her make one Final Stand and by making the ultimate sacrifice redeem herself. Or she dons the repaired Helm of Domination, now empowered by the Eternal Ones, making it outside the jailers influence and decides to stay in the Maw to make sure the Jailer stays permanently jailed.
Either way, she’s out of the story, just not as a loot piñata.
No, because it all hinges on how you read “arrows in my quiver” and “bulwark against the infinite.” Some people think those terms sound horrifyingly callous–I do get that–but to others, they just sound like metaphors and, in the latter case, about the warmest you could expect from someone whose emotions have been messed with by the process of undeath.
I have always leaned toward the second reading, but I can see why not everyone agrees with it. I wish you were capable of doing the same.
I am incapable of doing the same, because of what she does with them in that very same short story. She uses them, then abandons them, even after being warned of what would happen to them should she kill herself. She was very, VERY clear! She cared nothing for their fate. “Let them perish!” Sylvanas cried. “I am finished with them!” ONLY changing tune when she experienced hell, and she realized SHE needed THEM!
That doesn’t even get into her being absurdly clear on her meaning of “Arrows in her Quiver” earlier in the short story. There is little room for interpretation on it.
“The humans will serve their purpose,” she answered, her mind already calculating. “They believe they are liberating the city. Let them fight on our behalf and spend themselves for our gain. They are”—she stumbled upon an analogy she’d used before—“arrows in our quiver.”
The heaving mass of undead clapped and coughed and hacked gleefully in assent. Sylvanas regarded the whole mob coldly. And so are you, she thought to herself. Arrows I will aim at Arthas’s heart.
The Forsaken were no more cared for, or less tools for her revenge, than the Humans of the Alliance that were there to “expend themselves for her gain”. People taking any of this positively were those who where desperate to give her the benefit of the doubt, and pretend that any of this suggested she cared about the Forsaken. That she wasn’t this horrible, selfish, nihilist only using them.
Kinda hard to interpret arrows in a quiver as anything other than callous, for arrows are often discarded once they leave the safety of the quiver, some may be retrieved but the broken arrow holds no more value to the archer.
Well, then I’m afraid we won’t be able to have any productive discussion on this subject.
Just quoting the bits that convince you doesn’t do anything except make me see that they convince you. (I have seen them all quoted many, many times on this forum as well.) But since you’ve already announced that you are incapable of even seeing why other people don’t see it the way you do … I think that ends the possibility for further conversation.
I’m waiting for the quotes that convinces you so much that it was the other, far more “benefit of the doubt” interpretation. What exactly from EoN convinces you so much that the other, kinder image of that story was the more valid; even with BtS and BfA ruthlessly hammering home the Selfish Nihilists interpretation?
I swear, I feel like I’m a crazy person that I took that story as such a negative insight into her character. It’s part of what led me to believe that we were in for such a bad time with her as Warchief. I’ve been expecting her to use us and bail since Stormheim. When she pulled a direct Homage to Arthas’ “New World Order” quote when he killed Teranas; but only to the Alliance PC.
This belief was further augmented by asking the question back in Legion “Would Blizz have really killed Vol’jin in the way that they did, if all they wanted from Sylvanas was for her to fill the same role he could have … but less naturally?” Especially when all she did was SH. And when the only response I got for this question from Sylvanas fans was “they did it because she’s more popular, its just good marketing” … it was hard not to think that she was placed there to do something horrific that he wouldn’t have.
You’re not crazy, I mean even in WC3 during the forsaken campaign she is shown to be driven with the same motivation that damned Arthas to begin with. Vengeance, she’s in my mind basically re-treading his fall except more willfully and with more manipulations.
Take for example how she gave the regent lord of Silvermoon no chance to refuse her demands for Sin’dorei troops when the northrend campaign began, Rommath was incredibly disgusted by her and I love how Rommath told Lor’themar basically “our people would’ve rather died on vain, then to see you made a puppet.”
Maybe not crazy, but I think your interpretation of the story isn’t rock solid. I’d be lying if I said you were totally nuts, but I don’t think Sylvanas metaphors for the Forsaken are nearly as damning as you think. When Yrel says “Faith is my Shield!!!” nobody is like “oh, my god, she is just using the light like a tool only to be discarded when it is of no further use!!!”
Furthermore, when you consider that Sylvanas was going to destroy herself- the fact that it didn’t change her mind when she saw the Forsaken destroying themselves- isn’t that much of a surprise. Of course she would only change her mind when she saw what the eternal consequences could be.
I would think Sylvanas’ reaction to the vision of the future would have been more apathetic, since she was taking herself out of the picture… but even AFTER she realizes the vision isn’t real, she is still seething at what she is seeing. So she did care to some extent about what was happening, but at the same time, she wanted out. But then she found out there was no easy way out.
The fact that Sylvanas “used” the Forsaken to get revenge against Arthas is mitigated largely by the fact that everyone on Azeroth practically wanted revenge (except the paladins called it justice while wearing shiny armor). I don’t think the Forsaken had a problem with that. At least according to High Executor Anselm.
I’ve been in the military my whole life. I’ve fought in many wars, under many banners - but they’ve always been other people’s battles.
Not this time. Every Forsaken soldier you see here has come for one reason alone. Arthas must be killed.
So, yeah, of course Sylvanas has been more “goal oriented” than “people oriented”, but I think things like her initial reactions to the demise of the Forsaken, and her reluctance to kill her sisters and (even if this is disputed) allowing Crowley and his people to leave instead of slaughtering them…
All of these things, they betray Sylvanas’ veneer of ruthless evil. The whole reason why Godfrey killed Sylvanas? The same reason he betrayed Greymane. Not ruthless enough. “Weakness”. I don’t think Sylvanas’ actions are calculated by “selfish nihilism” at all.
I’ll be the first one to admit, that this is a good question. I don’t think it’s definitive proof that it’s to set up Sylvanas as a villain, but it does leave that open. I don’t know that Sylvanas was more “popular”. Maybe she is? I don’t know… she does have a slot in HOTS, while the only troll is Zul’jin. You’d think they’d wanna throw a shadow hunter in there, but does Blizzard really listen anyway?