While the recent tuning for Pack Leader was appreciated (see exact tuning below) it unfortunately does not resolve the two biggest problems with the Hero tree. First, it is still weaker than Sentinel is any form of PvE content where the target(s) don’t immediately fall over. Secondly, the hero tree still incentivizes spamming Kill Command.
While point 1 is simply a tuning game, the second point is very important to focus on as a Hero tree that is all about spamming KC removes any sort of skill expression from the spec as well as eclipses the brand new rework that SV received in The War Within. While the VH nerf is a good start to address that concern, buffing Cull the Herd (for example, see below) is a buff to Sic’Em (spec talent that gives a Kill Shot usage RNG to Kill Command) which in turn is a buff to KC spam.
If possible, the best solution would be to either tie the VH damage itself to Focus spent/using RS/or something other than KC generates VH and KC spends VH. Another solution would be to move things like Quick Shot or Sic’Em away from KC and to a different proc ingition.
Yeah I appreciate that PL is getting some love but I don’t know if these rounds of buffs and nerf is going to get rid of the kill command spam that PL inspires. A bigger change would be maybe something like VH activates on your next MB or raptor strike cast or something. Honestly it feels like the designers went “hey BM and SV both use kill command, lets attach VH to kill command and we are good to go!” without knowing or completely ignoring that SV and BM don’t quite use KC in the same way.
In terms of damage, I do like having a playstyle that is not dependent on the tank not moving mobs out of your owl poop circle but I am not sure how much you would have to buff/fix PL to get there.
I didn’t like pack leader when I first saw the beta preview thinking that a tree revolving around kill command would be boring. But with the extra abilities tied to KC / bombs via kill shot and explosive shot I prefer survival pack leader over any other build. In my opinion PL survival is the best iteration of melee survival since SL. It allows for a more ranged over melee hybrid spec which I prefer over DF melee heavy game play.
they could make packleader more attractive by having a node that allowed sv/bm to share a talent from each other’s tree…or just did it over from the ground up since it looks like it was designed around sv/bm pre-rework
What they should do in my opinion is build off of the Pack Coordination node. I don’t necessarily mind having to use Kill Command more, but only if they tie it into weaving in-between Kill Commands and Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite.
Something along the lines of:
After attacking with Vicious Hunt, your next RS/MB will cause you and your pet to attack together, causing X amount of damage. (Stacks 2 times or can store the damage up to 2 times)
Or maybe they could even tie it into Flanking Strike itself. Maybe attacking with Vicious Hunt can increase the damage of your next Flanking Strike and also reduce the cooldown of Flanking Strike by 1/2 seconds.
They could then easily tie the Exposed Flank talent (which after using Flanking Strike, causes your Kill Command to hit two additional targets for 10 seconds) to also consume Vicious Hunt with the additional Kill Commands.
That’s the big problem here, exactly. KC for BM is a spender and KC for SV is a generator. For BM you are incentivized to use your spender as much as you can (which you already do) as it just gives you extra damage and effects on your spender. This promotes resource management.
However, for SV, it’s tied to your generator. With another added damage and effects tied to KC, you just spam your generator regardless of tip/focus stacks, which does not feel very fun at all.
Kill Command spam, for me at least, is fun. I alway have Tip stacks for my big hitters and have 0 concerns for Focus. Kill Command feeling really good to hit is great.
Tip of the Spear almost killed this spec for me and Pack Leader saved it. The playbstyle youre looking for already exist with Sentinel, no? Why make the choice between hero talents an asthetics choice and not also a gameplay one?
I understand that, my question is why are they and some people here wishing for it to be different if they already have that experience theyre looking for in the sentinel tree?
If you wanted a lower priority KC where spending tip stacks to buff big hitters is your bread and butter… guess what, you have sentinel. Doesnt make sense to force both hero variants play the same.
Because Blizzard and many players believe a one button spec where you spam a generator regardless of your resources isn’t healthy gameplay. I’m sorry you feel otherwise
Because it’s antithetical to the core gameplay loop of the entire spec. Hero Talents aren’t supposed to redesign how you play a spec, but to accent them in some minor ways.
KC spam for PL entirely changes how you play survival, and in an extremely unhealthy way.
While it may fun to turn your brain off and just mindlessly spam a single button for you, some players would rather have a hero talent tree that has more going on under the hood than mindlessly hit a single button to do less damage than the other tree anyways, or would like to play without some stupid bird that’s entirely hinged on tanks and mechanics not being able to troll a large portion of your damage.
I’ll answer your question and pose you a better one;
To answer, because some of us want to play PL because it jives with us thematically better but don’t want the brainrot of pressing KC on CD regardless of any other class mechanics. We’re not BM hunters.
A better question to ask is why are some people okay with a hero talent tree being antithetically to a brand new redesign to a spec?
Sentinel doesn’t change how you’d play Survival at all beyond keeping track of a bird tied to your WFB. At all.
Implying it has a playstyle variance is intellectual dishonesty.
Thats my entire point, sentinel doesnt change anything. You want both hero ap3cs to play exactly the same which makes no sense. You have what youre looking for in the seninel tree.
The entire point of pack leader is clearly in the name. They correctly chose to give you and your pet more synergy with each other and they did just that by making Kill Command a strong button. Rather than enjoy the theme of the class, you want ot gutted so you can play sentinel without the owl. Thats silly and ridiculous.
Again, you have what youre looking for with the sentinel tree. It doesnt change the rotation, and you get the standard priority. Why change pack leader? Thematics? Kill Command is literally ON BRAND for Pack Leader.
“I like the theme of pack leader but dont like using the button that interacts with my pack.”
Furious Assault should proc 100% of the time. It’s already tied to a 20% chance through Frenzied assault. All that 50% proc does it bring your chance down to a paltry 10%. Buffing its damage doesn’t help much if it hardy procs.
a survival-flavor pack leader should lean into our “working in tandem” theme, not have us kill command a bunch of times in a row. we’re not beast masters. if vicious hunt interacted with kill command and at least one of our other attacks, that would be a perfect thematic fit. something like “kill command buffs raptor strike/mongoose bite damage,” or “every X focus spent buffs kill command,” or something. weaving pet attacks and hunter attacks together. teamwork
Have you ever looked at the talents for Pack Leader? Triggering the effect from Kill Command will cause your pet to attack with you on your next mongoose bite.
sure, that’s an example that leans toward what i’m talking about flavor-wise. but does that effect incentivize weaving in raptor strike to a meaningful degree? is it something we don’t want to waste? or does it mainly come into play when we run out of KC charges to spam and have to find a different ability to hit? the latter doesn’t sound to me like gameplay that actually reflects a coordination theme, it sounds like a consolation for having to engage with other parts of survival’s kit
I think it is going to be a kind of “wait and see” what PL means for survival. I am assuming that no blizz does not want you to spam kill command like crazy when playing PL hence the slight nerfs which honestly didn’t really do much. So the question is going to be- will blizz keep things the same where PL sv is more or less spam KC all the time OR will blizz change VH to something like empowering your next MB/RS (as opposed to the current KC).
I like having a hero talent option that does not really on the owl poop circle I just don’t know if spam KC should be that other option.