Oh, you have to PAY MORE MONEY to take the risk of getting vacationed to provide links to sites that goes against CoC without you even really knowing? Well, screw ME or you for trying to be the shining social example.
There are better projects that takes some $$$ to clean up the mean streets with besides getting pinched for that.
I mean, given that he was addressing a period in which Volatile didn’t apply SS, only refreshed the 12s duration…
Theoretically, it was still just strong enough to occasionally adjust priority for. But barely. And often only situationally (e.g., Shrapnel for uncapped mass AoE). Add up what else one might slip up on in doing spending that effort for such a paltry reward and it was pathetic, aye.
Which is why I don’t understand why they didn’t make a proper capstone of it, finally, with the TWW reworks. >.>
They wouldn’t be, but the more considerations a spec has to play with, the less likely it is that they’ll happen upon a similar enough combination to feel same-y. The fewer, the more likely.
That said, there’s a huge difference between “gameplay” as different mechanical cattle-prods or UI elements and “gameplay” as the combined result between whatever the spec brings and the situation it’s used in.
It doesn’t necessarily require bloating one’s buff bar with a dozen+ different buffs of your own, all from just your spec’s basic rotations, to have complex, nuanced gameplay. It’s about as likely that just a weighty-and-fitting resource bar itself and a few other little UI elements would produce as much emergent gameplay as a convolution hell and a half; it’ll just also be the more accessible, too.
I’m not particularly satisfied on current Tip, either, but there is a difference between every way to spend Dark Arts (minus Abyssal Drain) still amounting to the exact same potency difference (with the only benefit being +Blind [on a 30s CD], +self-healing [if in Grit], or +threat [worthwhile only if in tank stance, due to multiplicative stacking]) and SV’s differing ppgcds.
Two things here:
All of which would probably work a bit better with a choice between Mongoose Bite and some other perk. Of course, it’d also arguably work better with at least the option of a real Serpent Sting or a revitalized WFI to play around, but alas.
Except you would be wrong that WFB got that way by sheer POPULAR DEMAND, particularly at the grassroots. Specifically, people who don’t come to the forums/Discord. Back in SL, nobody gave a flipping poo about Mongoose Bite or Flanking Strike, and I won’t be sassed back otherwise. It got changed AGAINST its popularity.
What that ultimately caused is SV being crap all over again, and rightly so, because a small certain oligarchy would rather have a spec be bad than its fun to be shared by all.
WFB was everything about SV. Everything else didn’t matter. That’s significant when a lot of dev time was wasted towards making SV melee in the first place. One ability shined through and that was it.
It would have been the one thing that would have SAVED the spec, because it was otherwise crap and everyone knew it, but the elites didn’t care about what the lesser others wanted out of it.
There have been a lot of informed yet differing opinions about the spec on this thread that have really helped me conceptualize what it is about the spec that I am not liking. It’s really, mostly a productive debate.
That said, I miss Bepples, because MSV bad rants are more fun and the contrarian in me would likely find the spec more fun if he was making me feel obligated to play it.
You’re assuming that FotE would have remained exactly the same as it was in Legion, whereas I imagine it would have seen some level of iteration/improvement via talents. In line with my thinking since BFA, the Legion design (including FotE) needed refinement, not reinvention.
Again, messing with Crusader Strike and Judgement means you’re messing with ret’s resource generation. Removing Judgement means you have to put that additional resource generation (remember that Judgement can be talented to generate 2 holy power) somewhere else. Point is, it ain’t an easy change to make.
When the rest of the spec focuses on Kill Command and bombs, I have call this into question.
The point of a damage window (which is what Mongoose Fury is at the end of the day) is to reach max stacks ASAP and get as many MBs in as you can once you do. Going back to my earlier point, Tip of the Spear is at odds with this because you’re prioritizing Tip for bombs and the bombs have a chance to reset depending on talents, which takes away time from the damage window. You thus have two different gameplay loops competing with each other:
I’ll need to see numbers to confirm but from eyeballing the talents in the SV tree, I’d argue loop 2 supersedes loop 1, and as such Mongoose Fury falls by the wayside. Except damage windows shouldn’t fall by the wayside because of other parts of the design. So you’d either have to:
a) further emphasize the damage window (maybe make Mongoose Fury affect all damage done by the hunter instead of just MB damage),
b) phase out Mongoose Fury and go all in on Tip of the Spear, or
c) make Mongoose Fury and Tip of the Spear exclusive from each other and try to design around that
My point is more than you’re spamming one button. This goes back to my “Crusader Strike just dealing more damage when you accumulate 3 holy power instead of granting access to Templar’s Verdict” example.
I’m not sure what you mean by “early consumer”, since Mongoose Fury is a damage window with nothing that interacts/consumes it. SV doesn’t have a version of a rogue finisher or FFXIV’s Geirskogul.
That’s something that could be said about any “finisher”, so I don’t see the issue here.
Yes, and so the new, less controllable interrupter probably should be more optional than it is… but that conflict still only affects whatever point at which you have only as many GCDs less as you have Focus that could be spent on consecutive MBs (and only after a certain stack count even then, as you’d otherwise be better off not delaying WFB in case of conflict).
Remember, you’d be using KC regardless for Focus and WFB is now Focus-neutral rather than a Focus gain, so you’re not risking Focus overcaps by doing that.
And outside of Lunar Storm management (we can talk of Pack Leader once it actually becomes competitive), the margins of difference are pretty small.
Potency per stack from 0 to 5:
243.9 | 275.7 | 307.5 |339.4 | 371.2
Potency sum per GCD across an MF window (GCDs 1 to 9):
212.1 | 456 | 731.7 | 1039.3 | 1378.7 | 1749.8 | 2121 | 2492.1 | 2863.4
Average potency per GCD across an MF window (GCDs 1 to 9):
212.1 | 228 | 243.9 | 259.8 | 275.3 | 291.6 | 303 | 311.5 | 318.2
Marginal potency average potency gains from getting this last hit in (GCDs 2 to 9):
31.8 | 47.7 | 63.6 | 79.5 | 95.4 | 79.5 | 68.2 | 59.7
Meanwhile, a fully upgraded WFB’s damage to its primary target is…
(((55.5*1.5)+108)*1.13)*1.8 = 389 Fire potency…
…which, given that physical attacks deal about 30% less than their stated value against NPCs, would put WFB at the equivalent of about 556 physical potency, arriving at a ~185 potency over an MF5 and with a nominal delay cost of 46.3 relative ppgcd.
That said, NuInfusions gives only a 10% chance per WFB to generate another charge of WFB, or, in turn, to waste whatever cooldown progress you already made beyond a single charge. So, if you hit an MB instead of WFB right after WFB resets, with just 1 in 12 GCDs of WFB’s recharge time charged, then you’ll have faced a 10% chance of wasting 8.3% of WFB’s charge. In itself, that marginal value is not enough to use it over an extra (or especially the first) MB5 if you actually had the time and resources to max out those MBs.
More importantly, though, is Lunar Storm. For Sentinel, through that, WFB is also worth 281.3 ppgcd, or ~366 ppgcd in physical terms*, AND a general 10% damage bonus against the target struck. That’s huge.
The damage bonus alone pays back its marginal MB-efficiency cost in just 2 MB5s or a WFB and even an MB0. If Lunar Storm is down, then WFB should be used over MB regardless of stack count. If it’s already up, since you don’t want to waste the would-be Lunar Storm uptime, it’s worth briefly holding it.
So, in pure single target, if your Lunar Storm is already outgoing but is near end, it will still be worth finishing out your MB stacks. Otherwise, bomb regardless.
Technically, it’s just to max out MBs in window. There is no benefit to getting to max stacks earlier. If doing so would require delaying Focus non-overcapping regenerators and thereby being unable to afford as many MBs in window, you would have lost MB damage by doing so.
Button count is not the sole source of cognitive load.
If every third CS were hugely empowered and could benefit from Judgment while Blade of Justice and other generators could not (i.e., about the situation for current MB), a CS in that context effectively would be a separate action, a la Templar’s Verdict. The difference would be in the (reduced) ease of banking resources surrounding CS (not necessarily in a decreased complexity to CS/TV itself) if CS had that second simultaneous purpose (in place of TV), forcing a higher skill floor.
In the same way, MF-0 MB and MF5-MB do just fine as the same button. You could argue that we could benefit from more to manage and a tighter window from which to exclude competing actions, or even an alternative to an unaugmented MB, but an alternative to only an empowered MB would be pure button bloat if it had no CD (useable just once per MF window regardless) and almost pure button bloat in any other form.
I didn’t say it ever had an early finisher (though it HAS had resultant interactions, in this case through anti-synergy).
I merely pointed out that all unlocks, early consumers, etc., on ANY spec/build/class/profession/archetype, in ANY game, exist ultimately for an output payoff.
As MB’s already doing that through MF itself, already generates the same level of commitment as a future unlocked finisher would, and already thereby generates interaction (by wanting to clear space for its chain, and easily to a greater degree than a simple finisher would, as it’d be one-and-done unless by finisher you nonetheless mean a spammable ability)… there’s virtually nothing to be gained by separating that off into a second skill.
No, it can’t. Since most finishers compete against different priorities for their given GCD against other finishers (atop basic uptime costs, etc.) and are virtually always given a banking margin to play around. MB already committed you to that by ramping and the finisher would then have no competition, so the finisher adds nothing that MB itself didn’t already.
You can’t base an argument off of something that could have happened. Sure, it could have gotten better, but it never did throughout ALL of Legion.
Wait, so resource management is an important gameplay loop? 
You’re acting like it’s incredibly hard to just remove judgment and vastly lower CS’s cooldown. That increases resource generation to compensate. There’s a lot you could do to remove such redundant abilities, right?
That’s not the way MB and MF works. Reaching max stacks ASAP means you have no Focus for your max stacks. Survival is limited by the resources you generate, not the resources you spend. Your spender (MB) has NO cooldown and can be used freely. Your generator, however, is limited.
If you waste Focus this way, you won’t have Focus for more MB later.
This has not been the optimal gameplay loop in more than half a decade.
These are not mutually exlusive
I really don’t think these are at odds with each other at all. MF is exclusively for MB and Tip if for everything. You NEED to press KC very often during your MF window. If you don’t, you won’t have Focus. If you don’t have Focus, you can’t press your MB button.
If you really think that every MF should just be slamming MB I dont know what to tell you.
It was laughable as the rest of the spec was then. Absolutely NO other ramp-up DPS class ever had the problem of using an ability that can be wasted by CC. Because FotE did its best damage at 5 stacks, you knew to shoulder the first 3 Bites before you used CC, mobility, or a defensive to shut it down. The predictable pattern is what killed it, but stuff that’s truly ON DEMAND was what always mattered.
Nobody cares. He should be put on ignore by everyone on this sub, like I did. Trust me, the hunter sub will be a far better experience afterwards.
i wish we had more ogcds
No one really has off global offensive abilities other than Fire Mage that I can think of, Blizz wasn’t a fan of the “one-shot Swifty macros”
They write the Survival Hunter’s guide for WoWhead. I would take the advise from a person who’s purpose it is to know how to play a spec than randoms on a forum.
How is SV doing right now? I have been considering rotating it in to my keys/raid now and then for the heck of it.
DoolB, or “Blood”? That’s nobody I knew. Am I to believe he was trolling me as Ghonhir?
I wasn’t on TSL very long, because obvious. That’s too bad that I couldn’t be “graced” by his knowledge and expertise in the spec, which by comparison to someone of the likes of Bicmex…
If Blizzard didn’t trash SL S3-4 SV, I might have actually switch mains…
DoolB is Ghonhir? That’s funny. Going into SL, DoolB did that one group roundtable video (can’t remember the creators name. It was the only good video they ever did) and it was SUPER informative and entertaining. Everyone on that interview said they were going necrolord (because everyone knew chakrams was POG)
Edit: I seem to remember a harpoon silliness video going around reddit that I think belonged to DoolB also. That’s when sv was fun.
It’s better than reading someone’s incomprehensible rant on the forums.
I could also be missing the shorter harpoon CD. And just generally feeling more mobile.
I did some BGs last night and while I don’t have the stings, there’s kind of enough bombs and explosive shots and kill shots to make me feel ranged-ish, even without double chakrams. But getting out of the chaos and regrouping feels a lot harder. And cheetah feels meh. Then when I do get out of the mess, getting back in feels meh. Maybe I need to hold some of my charge-like pet centered abilities for mobility?
It’s not promising if he’s antipathetic towards me. At least I want to earn that.
I have never really gone public, only having come to TSL to verify the infamous reputation I have there. I can verify that no anti-Doolb content came out from any of my selectively private social media. But the perma IP vacation happened in about a week or so, after I got a temporary one. I only started trashtalking that Discord AFTER THE FACT and not by prejudging.
That’s what baffles me, because it preempted the vast majority of anything I could have said and done. Imagine triggering those pretriggered guys. It’s not the same as being in TSL for months and festering a pattern of antisocial behavior that ultimately ticks off the mods past the breaking point.
Usually when you IP-vacation someone in relatively quick order(and I’m talking about the first time), that usually means you’re afraid of them, you’re intimidated of them, or you know you would lose in what grand contest there is to consider. That’s significant if TSL is intimidated by the Jackal of Stormwind, without even putting him to the TEST. Did you know they didn’t even offer to put me up for competition, to see who DPSes better in the spec or whatever?
As laughable as vacations are because of this ingenious device called a VPN, I really didn’t see a cause in just being a trash-talking pest round-the-clock. If I’m a true GAMER first, I should do that instead, but this happened after I could no longer hunt in late SL. I was VERY LUCKY to finish out with 10,000 HKs, I make no mistake. It may never be done again in Retail.
As for SV, it, pending whatever’s coming down the pipe for Worldsoul, sucked the entire time EXCEPT Mad Bombardier. I believe there are some old SL S3 M+ records of how I even managed to walk in a few 15+ keys like it was nobody’s business. Mad Bombardier was so Gucci and so Versace that the M+ group I ran with SAID NO to me going as Marks: the spec I mained forever, and they were astounded at the very little melee uptime I sported. “I can’t believe you weren’t in melee much during trash.”
MIRV nades, brah.
But that didn’t last long enough for me to consider switching mains. I was hoping Dragonflight would further expand on it, but no: they once again forced melee down SV’s throat. I looked at it in 10.0 and decided the spec went back to being sucky again. Maybe DoolB got triggered by my limited commentary on that, but there was no conflict or argument between me and him about it. I only had a beef with those who considered the design to be “toxic”, and the irony that even nowadays, you have to spam KC for Tips.
I would argue we’re past that now. The smart Hunters already get it, the smart Hunters are not the ones trying to argue with me because they’re smarter than that. They already know that a demonstration of CORRECT subject matter knowledge and an EFFICIENT and EFFECTUAL demonstration of in-game play ARE THE ONLY THINGS that will shut me up for good, and not just that, gain me as a fan…
I had said this on my 𝕏 in rather colorful detail and language, particularly against Gunrunner though he’s not the only one I was talking to. You know how he was warning others not to interact with me? I correctly and accurately said it that he’s warning other bads like him, and I have to give him some props.
Translation: GIT GUD and talk like it before you do interact. It works; ask any GUD and SMART Hunter you might know.
I stay as far away from 𝕏 as possible. When I want to hear from others I go to the hunter Discord to read up.
Lawl
This is the Bepples energy I was missing in my life.
Where is that beautiful anime antagonist?