Though i still find BM and MSV fun, I find Bm debatably having more of an issue of having few abilities. In general, I hope more is added to each spec or at least one ability.
Legion Msv was also one of the worst spec in the game at the time. That even if you do the rotation right, you were not going get far in damage.
You also donât need to follow icy veins, and can talent for more active abilities if you want more pressing.
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Maybe all we need is KS to return to feel like the rotation is more filled out. Shadowlands is still aways off so we will just have to wait for beta to see.
That is why it needed some clean up, but did not need to be pulled back in line with other specs in simplicity. Could have kept some of its complexity and still be engaging.
That the issues with talents was waiting for next level to see what abilties I would get next; however, once you reach your next choice you find that the best option is passive. Your stuck with do I want to be most optimal performance or do I just want to pick what looks fun.
If all the talents were same base value then we could choose our play-style, but feels like Blizzard wants us to fit the same cookie cutter builds.
Cookie cutter builds have been an aspect of the game since itâs inception. Do not assume that it is a recent aspect of design 
If youâre finding issue with balance between an enjoyable active talent, and something passive, that may well be the best option, unless youâre in high progression, just select the active.
The options are there, but Iâd recommend considering the final tier talents, involving Glaive and Wildfire Infusion. An active, added ability, that offers no synergy, no change in playstyle, against a passive option that allows the player to consider their rotation.
The other passive in that tier is objectively more engaging than just another button to push, which allows the player to focus on expanding their damage window through pooling, and prioritisation.
Tip of the Spear and Mongoose Bite (both passive) are vastly more involved than the option for the active Flanking Strike.
Although one must remember the opening Legion tier of the passive synergy of MokâNathal against the active ability in Throwing Axes.
Tell me, was the extra button more involving for you, at the expense of a passive synergy?
Considering most of the current talent tree augment existing abilities, it definitely shows that more buttons pale in comparison to synergies.
Extra buttons that are just used on cooldown offer nothing. Legion Survival received a cleanup, and that is what we got for BFA. Mongoose Bite was vastly improved with the removal of charges on the ability. Explosive Trap being replaced by Wildfire Bomb was absolutely needed.
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Ive only played survival a bit but it does feel like it needs one more good ability for a decent rotation.
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It feels like that for the other specs as well, to me frankly.
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And Blizzard said they wanted to move away from that when they gave us talents as an alternative to trees; however, here we are still with the same best option builds.
What happen is finding a balance between pick more active abilities and not gimpy myself on damage.
If the difference between and active ability and passive ability is just minute difference in damage then there is no issue, but players have asked why theyâer behind on dps and sometimes it cause of talents choices.
Wildfire Infusion changes the strategy to MSV rotation requiring to think about your next move and either making changes to your rotation or holding off. While Glaive gives a button to use its just another cool down to wait on. I am not just looking for another button that adds to the rotation but abilities that make MSV also more engaging, and would take WFI just for that.
What we have is fun vs. synergy, does one ability offer more excitement over does it slow down your rotation.
You can use Mongoose that builds or Flanking Strike that expends all it damage in one use. Do you like weaving Mongoose in between other abilities or do you want to just hit a button and wait for its coold down?
MokâNathal just cause the MSV whole rotation to be a mess, you had a short window to reply while trying to keep up other DoTs or buffs. It did not feel like it added any synergy to MSV just more headaches, and I chose Axes just for that.
I not saying MSV needs all the buttons it had in Legion, but what I am asking is could it use one more that adds synergy and does not have to be a talent?
I think Coordinated Assault is just Bestial Wrath and just offers a burst widow with a long cool down. It offers little synergy to MSV rotation; however, I think it could be replaced with Lacerate, which would apply a bleeding DoT while also increasing you and your pets attack speed that stacked.
You would have the synergy of keeping up Lacerate for the speed buff while interweaving Mongoose bite to build up Mongoose Fury. Then every few minutes you throw out WFB and SS, or use KIll Command to build focus.
I thinking just adding that one extra button could add more excitement and a n engaging rotation.
Exactly, just one button not talent that adds not slows down MSV.
There will always be a specific set of talents we can pick which performs the best(in theory).
There is no point in asking for something like âperfect balanceâ as, in a game like WoW, that simply does not exist.
Nor should we ever advocate for it to do so. As this will make class and ability-design so much worse/more bland and generalized than it is right now, or has ever been.
If you want perfect balance, then that is whatâs required.
What they did give us with the current talent-design is, theoretically, the option for more situational choices that are more impactful, to be made.
Whether that has worked out as intended, is ofc debatable.
Having said that. The term âbuildsâ is of less significance nowadays compared to what it was in the past.
So, Barbed Shot but for melee as well as your pet?
You want to replace a slightly altered BM cooldown with a slightly altered BM core damaging ability?
Granted that Barbed Shot for BM has a lot of synergy with other elements of the specs design.
Depends on who you ask I guess.
But this would result in MSV having no major CD to rely on for times where one might be useful.
No matter my opinion on Coordinated Assault in itself.
Either way, this would essentially turn MSV into BM but without the element of having Bestial Wrath or Aspect of the Wild.
Raptor Strike - Cobra Shot
Lacerate - Barbed Shot
Kill Command - Kill Command
___ - Bestial Wrath
___ - Aspect of the Wild
Carve - Multi-Shot
MSV also has Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting.
Here, BM has nothing baseline, although it does have the option for you to pick up to 5 additional niche stand-alone abilities to add to the baseline toolkit.
6 even, though 2 are on the same row so, you canât get both of them at the same time.
To be clear, Iâm not saying that the two specs are perfect the way they are. Just saying that removing the major CD from MSV in favor of adding in a re-hashed Barbed Shot designed for melee combat, I would argue not to be the way to fix anything.
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I myself still believe that killer instincts dragonsfire grenade build during legion was the beat version of msv. Everything felt impactful and had a flow way better than mokânathal build or the BFA version
Why would this be such an issue? Being able to pick talents cause theyâer fun than cause they are best. Why advocate a all the same bland play-style?
We are still stuck to best builds, one for raids and one for M+, and if your talents do not fit into one of those you get left behind.
Yes, it brings more synergy with your pet. The only tie MSV has to its pet is KC, which is another ability taken from BM. BW plays a long with BM as other abilities cut down it cool down and give more burst openings. On the other hand, CA just adds a short damage buff with long cool down window. I just use it for boss fights as that best situation to use.
How about a ability that plays with MSV fast paced style and it atheistic?
Why does each class need a situational buff when they could just keep up constant damage that builds up? AC just gives windows were you do some more damage with long windows of waiting. It just makes the spec feel bursty, were you want to throw every thing in 20 sec unless you pick Birds of Prey then it becomes a game of trying to keep AC as long as possible.
I wonder if they could just change Serpent Sting in some way to make it work better in the main rotation?
I mean, I do like DOTâs to some extent, but they mostly dont seem to be much to look at in a rotation for an action packed spec like survival seems to be (as opposed to say a caster standing behind the front lines that doesnt matter as much if it feels like it has a full rotation of spells).
Perfect balance?
To achieve that, we essentially need all abilities to work the same way and deal the same damage/healing etc. etc.
That is why itâs such a big issue(would be).
You can do that now.
Who here is?
Again, unless we opt for a design philosophy where perfect balance is the top priority, we will always have these numerically best performing talent options to pick.
And despite what we have today, itâs not just about picking 1 âpathâ for raids and another for M+.
For some that is. For others, it can be that way.
Again, Iâm not saying that everything is perfect the way it is now.
Just that itâs not as bad as you say. For both raids and M+, as long as you donât play competitively, you can pick whatever you want and you can get through any piece of content you want to that is tuned to your level of power.
The real problem here, isnât actually with numbers, but with player perceptions.
Or, it sort of isnât even that.
Some players only invite those that follow the meta. If you donât want to, then donât (try to)join them.
All that is quite ironic considering the stated intentions from the devs that their goal was to further distinguish SV from the other specs.
And where have we ended up?
A melee spec which consists of several abilities taken straight from other Hunter specs. Mostly from BM.
Need, might be a strong word.
But for much of it, in large, thatâs how the game is designed nowadays.
I havenât checked all other classes, but is there any class/spec which is currently lacking a major CD? That does not have one baseline and cannot get one from talents?
And no, major CD doesnât have to be something that says âincreases your damage byâŚâ.
It can be in another form as well.
ive only played Survival a week or so at this point, but it seems like a very viable spec so far. I love how its uber reliant on the pet for focus generation.
I think if they changed serpent sting to be more intertwined with the other main rotation spells that itâd be the best of the three hunter specs.
Serpent Sting just doesnt flow well. It feels like a spell I want on a side key to hit while Im still running to the target then forget about once Im up close and raptor striking my foe into a blood puddle.
Just more of my random thoughts.
My issue with survival is that it feels a little clunky trying to go between ranged and melee. Maybe the CD on disengage and the gap closer could be lowered so you could be swinging around and having fun the whole time
maybe its because its meant to played in melee range but then thats just my speculation. 
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Makes sense, I was always of the impression that it was supposed to be hybrid
it does feel a bit weird. I mean, Ive only just started playing the spec, but I keep forgetting that I do a TON more damage if I move into melee range.
I think something is wrong with the spec or scaling or something at level 60 because I aint a good enough player to be getting nearly double the DPS of the next player down so often with the spec.
that or Maybe Details isnt as accurate as I was led to believe.
It is a blast to play, though. Dont think I can go back to MM or BM now, lol
I started to try hunter because I saw survival in pvp and had the 120 boost. I would like to try it in pvp sometime, BM just seems to be easier to maximize dps as I am starting out in PVE
no, youre definitely right. BM is very easy to get good DPS.
it just gets a bit mundane playing it after a while, is all.
but then, thats why I can never get my golf score lowered. I cant just be happy with âgood enoughâ and leave it. Always getting bored and trying something new and screwing my swing up, lol.
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I disagree. One thing that BfA did right was fix SV.
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