Survival is quite a joke and it needs a rework like ret pala's

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ilarion-windseeker

they forced a melee spec onto a class that was built around kiting and being ranged

In any not-entirely casual area where both kiting and playing from range are used, MSV still routinely does both, though?

@Asthelon-area-52

Not to mention, it has Lone Wolf, so the hunter class goes from a pet class to just a single pet spec.

Editing cause I feel like this came across harsher as intended. There are definitely concepts here that could work—just personally I think it’s trying to do way too much and stack way too many interactions and synergies, as well as themes too.

Lone Wolf is a baseline option there, though. As per the oh so many revisions suggested for MM’s Lone Wolf (in baselining it but making it neither increase damage nor decrease any utility separate from necessarily having a second, separate unit [Growl-LoSing, etc.]), it would neither need to force with-pet nor pet-less play.

As for their being “too many” interactions and synergies, I have to disagree. I do think some of them are more fluff than depth-adding, but when you path through it to a few different seemingly decent builds, you’ll likely find that their not overmuch.

@Asthelon-area-52

Every Hunter should get Marksman’s Advantage though.

I have to fully disagree. Having your survivability balanced at all around using up a (zero-damage) GCD to swap about Hunter’s Mark to the casters of incoming AoEs is pretty awful design.

@Weedgoku-illidan

why didn’t sv get any of their old sl conduits?

Because they weren’t fun.

Deadly Tandem was just a duration increase to CA. Make that free here and you just water down the duration for which CA / Spearhead are actually up, reducing burstiness. Make it a separate talent and it just looks like a lame “Improved {such and such skill}”.

Flame Infusion just balanced WFB around further ramp-up, devaluing your first cast and free charges from things like (DF’s version of) Bombardier.

Stinging Strike is literally Spear Charge.

Strength of the Pack was an RNG dependent stat-stick that doubled down on unnecessary KC spam.

None of them were actually well designed. They just made numbers go up (in a way that anything else equally could have, and likely in a less restrictive and/or banal way than those Conduits did).

@Weedgoku-illidan

legion legos or artifact nodes?

I get the desire to scavange whatever might have worked before, but… again, these weren’t, in themselves good, even when they could be transferred over. As a rule of thumb, if the addition doesn’t create a sort of mini-game (or, means of optimization) that is itself enjoyable… what is the point?

Most artifact nodes were basically raw damage increases. Exceptions:

• Hellcarver - Greater Carve/Butchery damage per enemy hit.
  • Reliant on higher WFB single-target damage for this to be a viable concept / not to just hurt SV’s 1- to 3-target damage in balance.
• Embrace of the Aspects - 10% reduction to Aspect CDs.
  • Aspects are class-wide skills; and if spec-segregated, they would belong at least as much to BM.
• Hunter’s Guile - 20% reduction to Trap CDs.
  • Traps are now Classwides, so that’d make little sense.
• Explosive Force - Bonus Explosive Trap damage.
  • See above. And that Explosive Trap doesn’t exist anymore, nor does any purely damage-dealing trap.
• Birds of Prey - 10% Leech on Raptor Strike only.
  • Actually not awful, but keep in mind this was when Raptor Strike was a filler, not your spammed attack. If given verbatim today, though, it could make it a little harder to threaten/peel an SV off one’s healer in 2v2s, which… honestly, might not be for the best, given that SV already has its ranged pre-engagement tools and going in probably should be a very deliberate thing for us.
• Hunter’s Bounty - 5s Exhileration CDR per kill.
  • Okay, yeah, I don’t hate that one.
• Aspect of the Skylord - 30% increased damage during Aspect of the Eagle.
  • Obliged us to burn AotE, an otherwise situational skill, rotationally. I’m glad it’s gone.

That’s… one decent node for the modern game, and a lackluster one of no sustained single-target value at that.

The legos were better, but still not great:

• Nesingwary’s Trapping Treads - 25 Focus on trapping an enemy
  • See the replaces NTA talent removed since early beta because of complaints towards its obliged gameplay loop.
• Frizzo’s Fingertrap - 10% more Carve damage; Carve spreads Lacerate to one additional target.
  • No modern Lacerate equivalent.
• Hellbrine - +30% damage done to target for 10s after using Harpoon.
  • Tuning issues aside, ST and adds onto the ToE forced Harpoon-on-CD debacle.

[Weedgoku-illidan]

it makes me wonder why they decided to gut out the whole trap thing from survival. after playing quite a bit of ret, ive come to really enjoy the talent that applies consecration from blades of justice. i think that could fit there for some pure damage traps. there was also a torghast ability (which they also drew from for talents in df) that i really loved, and that was having disengage drop a trap at your origin point.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

I can guarantee you that it wouldn’t play like MM does.

I think what Asthelon is asking is for a gameplay summary or concept rather than a talent tree. I’d also like to hear what the concept for RSV is supposed to be, because what I remember of it from raiding with a SV main back in Wrath was basically Explosive Shot resets and Black Arrow.

@Bepples-barthilas

Most of the praise you see for Legion SV is “grass is greener” effect. Very few people liked and played it back then. Even fewer than BFA SV and beyond. It was a thoroughly poorly designed spec.

I still argue Legion SV needed clean up and polish, not the weird change in direction we saw in BFA. The fact that pet attacks gave back Mongoose Bite charges at least made more sense than making Kill Command a thing for SV (because it really is more of a BM ability); in connection to that, the mastery made more sense because of this. To say nothing of the interaction between Mongoose Fury and Fury of the Eagle. There were some good ideas in there, but the spec needed some clean up.

As an aside, there’s the fact Legion’s SV didn’t feel as reliant on haste as it did in BFA and DF. I recently got geared enough to discover that the magical number is 20% haste for current SV (allows 4 Mongoose Bites before forcing you to press Kill Command or Flanking Strike), so my criticism of the spec being stupidly reliant on haste to feel playable stands.

@Asthelon-area-52

I actually saw this tree earlier today. Much like other fan designed trees, it’s a mess of 40+ nodes with a TON of unnecessary, overlapping concepts, and overloaded passive synergies.

As someone who recently posted some talent trees, if I’m included in this statement please tell me. I’d rather be told my ideas are terrible (provided some logical arguments back up that claim) over hearing nothing, because at least that way I can hope to learn something from the experience.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

As an aside, there’s the fact Legion’s SV didn’t feel as reliant on haste as it did in BFA and DF.

It was still incredibly Haste-reliant. Increasing Haste by X amount contributed at least as many MB resets as would spending that amount on Mastery, all while also increasing the value of the MF windows by way of more globals being able to be fit therein, atop FotE extending the MF window by a fixed amount despite its uptime cost obviously scaling evenly with Haste (meaning its rewarded MF time, in turn, scaled with Haste).

@Gizolfi-sentinels

I recently got geared enough to discover that the magical number is 20% haste for current SV (allows 4 Mongoose Bites before forcing you to press Kill Command or Flanking Strike)

This doesn’t quite make sense.

First, any KC that wouldn’t overcap your Focus takes priority over MB until you’re late enough in the MF window with high enough Focus that you could get fill each remaining GCD with MB regardless (also accounting, yes, for the SV 4P proc).

Second, even at 0% Haste, you can already use 4 MBs in a row. You generate ~7.5 Focus per GCD (5 per second, but scaling with Haste, so… Haste is irrelevant to your consecutive use thresholds).

• Starting from 100 Haste, the first 3 GCDs would drop you to 10 Focus, but you’ll have generated 22.5 Focus in that time, thereby totaling ~33 Focus — enough for a 4th MB.

@Gizolfi-sentinels

so my criticism of the spec being stupidly reliant on haste to feel playable stands.

It stands only because of the fact that not all things that interact with the fixed duration MF windows are going to get equal returns on Critical hits (since the primary value of your generators isn’t their damage, and crits can’t increase Focus regeneration) and because you have Haste-based utility procs (especially under SV’s current 4P), though, not just because of any sort of particular ratio made possible between MBs and non-MBs.

Though, yeah, that dependence on Haste will only increase with 10.1, once Lunge causes AAs to give WFB CDR. Oof.

@Gizolfi-sentinels

As someone who recently posted some talent trees, if I’m included in this statement please tell me. I’d rather be told my ideas are terrible (provided some logical arguments back up that claim) over hearing nothing, because at least that way I can hope to learn something from the experience.

Those descriptors do not well seem to describe your recent trees. I’d caution almost the opposite, that yours seem a bit… scant, even. And the primary train of obvious functionality issues and imbalances were already noted immediately, so… there’s definitely a lot of work left to go, but no, I don’t think bloat is your primary concern there. Though maybe Asthelon may see it differently; idk.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Tanais-kilrogg

First, any KC that wouldn’t overcap your Focus takes priority over MB until you’re late enough in the MF window with high enough Focus that you could get fill each remaining GCD with MB regardless (also accounting, yes, for the SV 4P proc).

I’m talking about passive Focus regen. The tooltips for haste say it has an effect on passive Focus generation, and after I hit 20% Haste I started being able to do 4 Mongoose Bites before needing to push Kill Command/Flanking Strike to get focus back. This was before I got the 4-piece tier bonus. Granted, the faster GCD is also helping in weaving in KC in other instances. Either way, I’m just pointing out that the spec is still as stupidly reliant on Haste as it was in BFA, and I can’t say I’m a fan of that.

@Tanais-kilrogg

Though, yeah, that dependence on Haste will only increase with 10.1, once Lunge causes AAs to give WFB CDR. Oof.

Well, crap. They’re really trying to push things towards bombs.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

I’m talking about passive Focus regen.

I know. But that’s my point. The increase to the rate of passive Focus regen is identical to the increase to the rate by which you’re spending it.

You’re going to build 22.5 Focus in those 3 GCDs regardless of whether those 3 GCDs take 4.5 seconds or 3 seconds. As such, if you started with at least 95 Focus, you’ll be able to use 4 MBs in a row. Haste does not affect that.

It’s just a matter of frame of reference:

1. You generate 5 Focus per second. Haste increases this rate proportionately.
2. You generate 7.5 Focus per GCD. Haste does not further/additionally increase this (because it already affects your GCD).

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Tanais-kilrogg

I know. But that’s my point. The increase to the rate of passive Focus regen is identical to the increase to the rate by which you’re spending it.

So focus regen and the reduction of the GCD have identical scaling with haste?

@Tanais-kilrogg

As such, if you started with at least 95 Focus, you’ll be able to use 4 MBs in a row. Haste does not affect that.

I’ll have to take off some gear to test, but this is something I noticed because before I hit the 20% threshold, 3 Mongoose Bites was my limit before I had to KC/FS for focus. Once we started getting showered in ilevel 385 gear, I noticed I was starting to consistently hit 4 MBs before needing to KC/FS. Since focus regen gets a boost from haste, I figured that was the cause of it.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

So focus regen and the reduction of the GCD have identical scaling with haste?

Since, starting at 100 Focus, I end up with 3 Focus left spamming MB 4 times in a row regardless of whether I strip down to 3% Haste or stay at 28%, yes, it would appear so.

That’s also how Energy is affected, btw. And Focus is just a slower Energy.

@Gizolfi-sentinels

3 Mongoose Bites was my limit before I had to KC/FS for focus.

That should only be the case if you start at less that 95 Focus.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Asthelon-area-52

it’s a mess of 40+ nodes with a TON of unnecessary, overlapping concepts, and overloaded passive synergies

Not sure what you mean with “a TON of overlapping concepts”. It has quite a few nodes that do provide passive synergies/interactions between various elements, that is true. Keep in mind, though, that you won’t be able to make use of them all at the same time. You only have 30 points to spend, and the whole point of a spec talent tree is to allow players to focus on a playstyle which they enjoy and can identify with.

This can easily get a bit convoluted but…some players like to have ability A, and prefer it to also interact with Y, while others like A as well, but instead prefer an interaction with Z. Some might even prefer for A to benefit from/work with both Y and Z.

Obviously, there’s a limit to how many of these options you’d want include before it becomes too much. Having said that, without more specified examples, I’m not sure what you think is “too much”.

@Asthelon-area-52

just personally I think it’s trying to do way too much and stack way too many interactions and synergies

Fair enough, feel free to be more specific. I’m by no means saying that it’s “perfect”. Without the option to try it out in a game setting to see how things feel/work out, at the most, it’s a proof of concept.

@Asthelon-area-52

Not to mention, it has Lone Wolf, so the hunter class goes from a pet class to just a single pet spec

The class currently has 2 specs with mandatory reliance on pets for core mechanics. While the option to play without a pet for MM, and with my concept as well, obviously is a step up from the past, keep in mind that the class has historically had very little in terms of interactions and reliance on pets, beyond them being/serving as moving physical DoTs, and provided some form of utility.

Having a spec/2 specs where the pet is optional, it won’t change that you have the ability to play with a pet, nor will it change to what degree we can interact with our pets, like in the past, prior to the implementation of Lone Wolf. The actual major difference is the fact that some of our specs now rely on pets for their core functions, on a more tangible level than ever before.

Also, do note that, while there’s a node for the intended Mastery effect for the spec, along with one for Lone Wolf as well, those are intended as baseline elements of the spec, rather than serving as part of the talent tree itself. I put them in there just so viewers could see what they were.

@Gizolfi-sentinels

I think what Asthelon is asking is for a gameplay summary or concept rather than a talent tree. I’d also like to hear what the concept for RSV is supposed to be, because what I remember of it from raiding with a SV main back in Wrath was basically Explosive Shot resets and Black Arrow

Not sure what you mean by “gameplay summary/concept”. What I linked there is a concept meant to visualize what a modern version of RSV could look like.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Not sure what you mean by “gameplay summary/concept”. What I linked there is a concept meant to visualize what a modern version of RSV could look like.

Put simply, is it a DoT spec that allows use of a bigger skill (including Explosive Shot resets)? Is it built around on-demand burst? Is it like Outlaw Rogue with buff upkeep that plays a role in the rest of your gameplay? Is it just constant crits and cooldown-reliant like a fire mage?

Also, unless I’m pasting it wrong, the import string you linked is coming up as a class tree instead of the spec tree in the picture. I’m seeing stuff like Iron Hawk and Aspect of the Fox.

[Offhuntdead-tichondrius]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Not sure what you mean by “gameplay summary/concept”. What I linked there is a concept meant to visualize what a modern version of RSV could look like.

When you pick a spec ingame without relying on streamer/metasheep, the first impression you can have is the spec description and the core skills.
Example for MM : A master archer or sharpshooter who excels in bringing down enemies from afar."
[Steady Shot], [Arcane Shot], [Aimed Shot], [Rapid Fire], [Lone Wolf], [Trick Shots]

Then for people that don’t know much about RSV, you can throw a rotation example.
It would help visualize how you play it and what would feel so much different/better/worse than other spec choices

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

Also, unless I’m pasting it wrong, the import string you linked is coming up as a class tree instead of the spec tree in the picture. I’m seeing stuff like Iron Hawk and Aspect of the Fox

That is very odd. I’ll edit and repaste the link again in the initial post.

Here it is again as well

Edit:

I checked the link above here and it should direct you to the correct page. I can’t say why it didn’t work before. Probably just me missclicking when initially creating the link.

@Asthelon-area-52

I actually saw this tree earlier today

Just quoting for a heads-up in case @Asthelon got directed to the wrong page as well.

[Ilarion-windseeker]

@Tanais-kilrogg

In any not-entirely casual area where both kiting and playing from range are used, MSV still routinely does both, though?

Keeping something at range while killing it is not the main role of a melee dps such as survival though. I could just as easily argue that you could play as bm and stay in melee range the whole time, that doesn’t mean that bm is a melee spec though. Plus, survival can not do its full dps potential at ranged / while kiting.

[Eilaura-thrall]

I think the 4pc making a spec come online should be how it works for every class, tier sets are supposed to be a big cool damage gain and if you work for a large bonus like that and it does nothing then whats the point of it? its just more a pretty change from stats at that point. Its the issue that were the only class that has that issue, we go from actual dog peepoo to literally comparable to the top if played right and nobody has that large of a leap but us imo.

I agree with our talent tree being a little crazy especially after looking at a ret tree today and seeing how their rework gave them SO many options, they can reach so much more of their tree than i feel like we should for our current position however blizzard wont listen to me

If they were however to listen to me, help these tier changes from today by changing Kill Command dmg gain by 50% to Mongoose/Butchery/Carve and ill take it all day long pls and ty

[Bepples-barthilas]

Actually tying a huge amount of power and especially gameplay changes behind a tier set is really bad. Tier sets should be respectable power increases but not gamechangers. We have 3 expansions behind us now to demonstrate that attaching extensive parts of a class’s capability to borrowed power is a bad idea. Classes should be good on their own.

[Weedgoku-illidan]

i don’t think it should, it’s a kick in the groin to people who favor m+ over raiding. and even if you do raid, there’s no real guarantee that you can get it anyway for 6 weeks. and no offense, re-reading your post it seems pretty clear to me that you likely are able to feed yourself tier lol

[Eilaura-thrall]

yes classes should be good on their own however in my opinion the class set should add alot more power on it, the difference between raw steak, a steak from chillis and wagyu (fresh 70, geared 70 no set, geared 70 set)

[Bepples-barthilas]

Then what you’re asking for is classes not being good on their own.

[Eilaura-thrall]

Whether i could feed myself tier or not they have introduced ways for people in m+ OR pvp even, who you forgot to mention, to achieve tier without doing raids, without spending weeks on end and i believe thats what blizzard wants which im fine with, it feels great getting a new piece of gear, especially tier pieces with the long times in between

[Eilaura-thrall]

If you have a SO they must love you, “s*x is great, every time i go, thank god we dont add ANYTHING to it but missionary” gets the job done as is ye?