Survival is doing great in the new raid

[Bepples-barthilas]

When you take away the paint and polish you realize that I’m right.

Translation: “if you ignore everything that’s different, they’re the same”.

Just admit that you are wrong. Everything I said was correct. You like to give the same boring argument, but the truth is that all you have is Class Fantasy/Flavor and you really cannot go beyond that. Is that why you took so long to respond even though you’ve made other posts between those times?

You should go back and read your posts like these every time you feel like expressing the whole “reasonable arbiter” facade you like to keep up around here.

I’ve talked about both gameplay and thematic differences. In fact, I used to talk about only gameplay matters when it came to Survival back in the early Legion days because that’s what mattered to me the most. I’ve just come to realise that melee SV is weak on a thematic level too and I shouldn’t play into the fallacy that somehow making SV melee improved it in that area (ostensibly the whole reason they made it melee in the first place).

I had to look at my bars to see myself. There has been several times where I went Big Red because I thought that I was casting Black Arrow.

Uh, what? Those are very different abilities. Were you also wondering why you weren’t seeing any Serpent Stings or Explosive Shots and you weren’t getting any Lock and Load procs? Or why you were instead having to manage Frenzy stacks and Beast Cleave?

While I agree with this statement, the reality of the time fell way too short.

Even if we agree that they were too similar, something I will never do because it wasn’t true (at least not since Burning Crusade), it’s not enough to say “too similar therefore SV must be melee”. SV going melee shouldn’t have been anywhere near the top of the priority list for things to do to solve the “problem”. There were countless other possibilities that were all both a) much easier and b) much more effective. Hell, look at MM and BM in Legion. They changed a lot. If you had SV with the same gameplay it did with WoD with no changes at all (not something I support, BTW) it would be vastly different from MM and BM in Legion purely due to how much those specs changed, so evidently it was a non-issue at that point.

This is why I never bought this argument for making it melee. It was such a difficult and out-of-the-way “solution” that only led to so many more core and pressing problems that it’s unthinkable to me that they started from the question “How can we differentiate the Hunter specs” and naturally arrived at “making SV melee” as the logical answer despite all the better ways of doing it they would have had to consider along the way.

I still think that it’s more about one hating change, your posts are too angry otherwise. They took your pet spec away and you have been a prolific troll.

I supported pretty much every change they made to Hunters up until Legion. Same with Paladins, my other class: there were plenty of moments e.g. Holy Power where everyone else complained and I defended the changes. I even defended the WoD pruning, and I still do to some extent. I actually look back on those times and realised I defended a lot of things that really didn’t deserve defending and Legion proved once and for all that my loyalty to Blizzard and WoW was woefully misplaced.

It’s not trolling if I fully believe it and put a lot of effort into my posts.

Why not?

I usually don’t respond to the empty one-liners in your posts since usually they are just a “no-u” tier response to something I already said, but I’ll bite. The specs being too similar in Vanilla and BC was not so much a problem at the time because the standards were different. They weren’t really meant to be different gameplay styles at all at that point. That changed (for the better, IMO) in WotLK and especially Cataclysm, and each expansion furthered that differentiation. Legion was the breaking point where they went off the deep end and started treating specs as different classes.

So talking about BC is a waste of time because it was a very long time ago and the problems with the class back then were largely irrelevant as of the more recent expansions. This would be like complaining that Hunter gameplay is too static because in BC we just spam-clicked a castsequence macro. It’s an ancient and irrelevant problem.

Seriously, what are you talking about? We got a few abilities, be we still played the same. Not only that, but it’s not even just me that sees that. I’m just the only one who reads your long winded posts and respond with more than just glancing through it.

In BC all 3 specs had literally the same gameplay; weaving Steady Shot and Auto Shot.

As much as you like to marginalise the gameplay differences of WoD it wasn’t in the same league. Say we accept the over-generalisation that Explosive Shot and Kill Command were the same thing (hey, at least Survival didn’t literally have Kill Command as part of its toolkit back then!). They are still in a literal sense different abilities at the very least. We didn’t even have that in BC. The core toolkit was exactly the same for all 3 specs.

Why bring up now in a conversation about the past?

??? Because it’s relevant?? If tying different effects to Multi-Shot were “too similar” they wouldn’t still be doing it. The fact that they are demonstrates it’s a perfectly valid approach to Hunter AoE and it was in WoD too.

You take out the trinket (bare with this simplification) and SV was unchanged.

Translation: “if you ignore everything that’s different, they’re the same”.

Here’s the simple outline:

1. You claim that there was no way forward for ranged SV, i.e. no mechanics could be introduce to further the spec’s gameplay and identity
2. I bring up the WoD trinket which provided a significant and effective boost to both the gameplay and identity
3. I bring up other examples where they incorporated effects from items in one expansion into the base class of the next expansion
4. Therefore there were demonstrable ways to further ranged SV and you’re wrong

Yes it does hold up. Your posts don’t hold up that well, which is probably why you hide that using a lot of words.

Throughout writing this post here I find myself referring to and reiterating points from my previous post often. That’s why I write a lot of words. It future-proofs my posts. I could leave parts out (and sometimes I do go back and cut unnecessary parts out) but it just means there’s a counterpoint I know is coming yet I’m not proofing my argument against it.

SV is the best melee spec in the game right now. I firmly believe that if we had as many SV players as we do say, Ret or DH, than SV would be the top melee spec for ever aspect of WoW.

This isn’t even true. Even in rated PvP, which is SV’s strongest showing, you have multiple other melee specs far ahead of SV in representation. There are around triple the amount of Assassination Rogues in rated PvP v.s. Survival Hunters. Funnily enough, given you people keep favourably comparing Survival to Retribution and Arms: both those specs beat SV in representation by a lot on rated PvP.

Yeah, a lot of people avoid the spec (I wonder why…), but you have some exceptional players running SV in PvP right now and even the best will tell you that SV is not as good as a few other melee specs in the game right now. It’s better than quite a few, but it’s worse than a few as well.

And that’s just rated PvP. SV gets smoked in raiding even by the other Hunter specs and it doesn’t even have useful raid utility like Warriors or Demon Hunters. It’s actually one of the least-desirable melee specs in raiding.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

This is why I never bought this argument for making it melee.

Simply put.

The devs created melee SV because they wanted to.

Not because there wasn’t anything you could do with RSV at the time, going forward.
Nor did they do it because a ton of players asked for it.

The specs being too similar in Vanilla and BC was not so much a problem at the time because the standards were different.

Agreed.

In Vanilla and BC, we played the class. Talent choices back then, were mostly just meant to make you stronger in a few aspects of the core of the class. They weren’t about vastly changing your playstyle.

What aspects? Depended on what talents you picked.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Translation: “if you ignore everything that’s different, they’re the same”.

Actually it’s when you break it down to it’s base levels, it is the same.

You should go back and read your posts like these every time you feel like expressing the whole “reasonable arbiter” facade you like to keep up around here.

Does that mean that you are going to set aside your own Don Quixite facade? Are you going to stop acting like you are the only one who can be correct, and you are never wrong? Are going to stop acting like you are as intelligent as Solomon?

I’ve talked about both gameplay and thematic differences.

Actually you talked about the fantasy of it and how a trinket changed SV which really didn’t actually change SV.

In fact, I used to talk about only gameplay matters when it came to Survival back in the early Legion days because that’s what mattered to me the most.

Actually you spent a lot of time acting like anyone who like SV was your enemy, which you have not stopped. I mean you compared Rexxar to an autistic person.

I’ve just come to realise that melee SV is weak on a thematic level too

It’s not actually, but your post history shows a lack of knowledge on thematic levels on this Class. That has shown often, the latest is the Lorthamar thread that popped up recently.

and I shouldn’t play into the fallacy that somehow making SV melee improved it in that area (ostensibly the whole reason they made it melee in the first place).

It is, but it’s not like you have the experience.

Uh, what?

It was true.

Those are very different abilities.

Until you use them.

Were you also wondering why you weren’t seeing any Serpent Stings or Explosive Shots

I couldn’t see a lot back then, packs of guild members, floating texts, numbers…

Or why you were instead having to manage Frenzy stacks and Beast Cleave?

See above.

Even if we agree that they were too similar, something I will never do because it wasn’t true (at least not since Burning Crusade), it’s not enough to say “too similar therefore SV must be melee”. SV going melee shouldn’t have been anywhere near the top of the priority list for things to do to solve the “problem”. There were countless other possibilities that were all both a) much easier and b) much more effective. Hell, look at MM and BM in Legion. They changed a lot. If you had SV with the same gameplay it did with WoD with no changes at all (not something I support, BTW) it would be vastly different from MM and BM in Legion purely due to how much those specs changed, so evidently it was a non-issue at that point.

You can just say I disagree and leave it at that.

This is why I never bought this argument for making it melee.

I don’t believe you.

I supported pretty much every change they made to Hunters up until Legion.

I never paid you any mind until you started with this facade. I am not calling you a liar, just that I can understand why you post like you do and why you are fueling trolls.

It’s not trolling if I fully believe it and put a lot of effort into my posts.

I do think that you put effort into your posts, but if you are not trolling, then I am getting a very disturbing vibe off you.

So talking about BC is a waste of time because it was a very long time ago and the problems with the class back then were largely irrelevant as of the more recent expansions.

It points to a history of something.

In BC all 3 specs had literally the same gameplay; weaving Steady Shot and Auto Shot.

Actually there was more than just the macro, SV had a different one than BM did but that aside, SrS and Arcane came more into play than BM and BW was a major difference than SV. I have no experience with Marks beyond people who played it like they did in Vanilla.

??? Because it’s relevant??

I disagree. The changes were made and both SV and MM are completely different than they were before.

Translation: “if you ignore everything that’s different, they’re the same”.

Not at all. Break it down to the core, not add something that shifts it away from that.

You claim that there was no way forward for ranged SV, i.e. no mechanics could be introduce to further the spec’s gameplay and identity

I claim that I don’t see a way forwards.

I bring up the WoD trinket which provided a significant and effective boost to both the gameplay and identity

That’s a bit much.

I bring up other examples where they incorporated effects from items in one expansion into the base class of the next expansion

If I missed that, I’m sorry. You do bury things in words and hide a lot.

Therefore there were demonstrable ways to further ranged SV and you’re wrong

No, but if I do get things wrong, I am adult enough to admit it.

Throughout writing this post here I find myself referring to and reiterating points from my previous post often. That’s why I write a lot of words. It future-proofs my posts. I could leave parts out (and sometimes I do go back and cut unnecessary parts out) but it just means there’s a counterpoint I know is coming yet I’m not proofing my argument against it.

You really need to rethink this. You say very little with a lot, often repeat yourself, even when it’s obvious that you are wrong. Use less to say more. If you don’t understand, ask for clarification. Don’t just act like you are always right. This facade stuff you’re trying to bait me with really seems poorly thought out projection on your part. I cuss less here and that’s about the largest difference than my actual self. What are you truly like?

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Until you use them.

Please, describe how they are the same again.

It points to a history of something.

A history that is irrelevant to the topic of what version of RSV it is that we want back.

As that version of RSV did not exist before WotLK.

I disagree. The changes were made and both SV and MM are completely different than they were before.

Current MSV has Carve baseline. It’s essentially Multi-Shot, but melee-based. At least by your standards, they are the same…

The Butchery-talent for MSV has the same effect as Multi-Shot has for MM if paired with either Lethal Shots(talent) and/or Calling the Shots(talent).

This also happens to be what Bepples was talking about in his earlier post. Where he made references to current WoW.

So yeah, looking at spec differences/similarities today, is very relevant to this particular topic.

Break it down to the core

Your definition of “core” in this case, is the frequency at which you use different abilities.

And yes, pacing plays a part in determining spec/design uniqueness. But only A PART. There’s so much more that plays into this, other than just the above…

I claim that I don’t see a way forwards.

Fair enough. That’s your opinion/point of view.
Though, does that mean that there isn’t(couldn’t be) an actual way forward?

That’s a bit much.

Much of my suggestions involving the reset mechanics of Black Arrow, in my proposed design, is based on the mechanics of that trinket. Not entirely based on it alone ofc. But to a degree…

That trinket did have a big impact on how you played the spec back then.

Though, was the trinket a part of the core design of the spec? No. It wasn’t.
I agree on this part, specifically.

No, but if I do get things wrong, I am adult enough to admit it.

Still waiting for you to read through my suggestions on what RSV could be designed like, today.
Not saying that you have to love the design.
But after reading it, can you still say that RSV had nowhere to go, after WoD?
Would you still say that the spec couldn’t have been updated to fit into the modern game, like the other specs were with Legion?

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Please, describe how they are the same again.

Just go back and read what I’ve already said please.

A history that is irrelevant to the topic of what version of RSV it is that we want back.

As that version of RSV did not exist before WotLK.

While a good point, my point stands as when I said it.

Current MSV has Carve baseline. It’s essentially Multi-Shot, but melee-based. At least by your standards, they are the same…

Actually it’s not. What’s the CD on Multi Shot? Does it compare to Carve’s CD?

The Butchery-talent for MSV has the same effect as Multi-Shot has for MM if paired with either Lethal Shots(talent) and/or Calling the Shots(talent).

Can you use Multi-shot outside that Build?

This also happens to be what Bepples was talking about in his earlier post. Where he made references to current WoW.

Unless you are Bepples, I doubt that.

Your definition of “core” in this case, is the frequency at which you use different abilities.

It’s more than that, and I have explained it to you already, in multiple threads and even asked you to hit the HCT about it to avoid hijacking threads.

Fair enough. That’s your opinion/point of view.
Though, does that mean that there isn’t(couldn’t be) an actual way forward?

To be fair, you do understand what I was responding to on this right? He was getting a point wrong, someone who claims to have a vast intellect should grasp.

Much of my suggestions involving the reset mechanics of Black Arrow, in my proposed design, is based on the mechanics of that trinket. Not entirely based on it alone ofc. But to a degree…

That trinket did have a big impact on how you played the spec back then.

Though, was the trinket a part of the core design of the spec? No. It wasn’t.
I agree on this part, specifically.

The trinket did not change SV at a core level. It was nice to have, but take it off for something else like a PvP Trinket SV is still going to play like SV was made to be.

Still waiting for you to read through my suggestions on what RSV could be designed like, today.
Not saying that you have to love the design.

I have, it takes me a while to think on things.

But after reading it, can you still say that RSV had nowhere to go, after WoD?

There wasn’t too much beyond exotic munitions, and even then that is a rather large headache for the Devs in terms of PvP (Frost Ammo was too strong) but again, I’m using critical thinking on your ideas and I want to think it out throughly.

Would you still say that the spec couldn’t have been updated to fit into the modern game, like the other specs were with Legion?

Honestly if Titanstrike went to SV and worked off of the magic from the Gun and Hati they could have done better. That would leave Talonstrike for BM and give that spec a spec that actually feels like you are a master of beasts.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Sorry for the long reply, a lot to go through.
PS, typed it on my phone so pls excuse any misspellings or other…

Just go back and read what I’ve already said please

Mostly, this was meant to make a point, not to be taken in the litteral sense. But sure, while were at it…

When you take away the paint and polish you realize that I’m right. Just admit it. Take Cobra Shot and Steady Shot, one extended SrS and did nature damage, the other did not. Why did you use either? You spent a 1.5 second cast to regain Focus. Wait, the same casting time for the same purpose, and the same result?

Here, you bring up and compare 2 different abilities for the two specs(as designed in one period of the game’s history).
In your own reply, you also mention in what way those abilities are actually different from one another.

You also have the period when Cobra Shot extended the duration of SS. Another thing that Steady Shot, did not do.

Sure, each ability had a short cast time and it generated focus. This is on the same level as if you were to compare Frostbolt/Fireball or Arcane Blast for Mages.
Or pretty much every melee-based DD-ability we have in the game. You press the button and the character hits the enemy.
It’s those extra effects, such as DoT-extensions or CD-reductions, or DoT-applications, that differentiates the abilities.
Along with thematic design and animations.

Does that mean that every single ability has to feel like it comes from a completely different aspect of design? No.

Objectivelty, it actually makes sense for abilities like Steady Shot and Cobra Shot to mostly work the same way.
Like you said, they are meant to achieve the same thing, generate focus.
What differentiates them, is the additional effects that are also attached to them. Along with animations.

There has been several times where I went Big Red because I thought that I was casting Black Arrow

As for your original quote above here. It doesn’t matter jow much paint and polish you take away from either of these two abilities. Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow.

They still won’t be the same.
The only way they are even remotely similar to one another, is the fact that they were both designed to, in the end, make you do more damage.

And yes, I know that you were talking about the frequence of button presses for each ability when comparing them. But they weren’t even similar on that end. Or…I guess, they both had CDs. But so does quite a few other abilities in this game.
Those two have never shared CDs(lengths).

In BC you used a cast sequence macro.

As for your mentions about BC, the things you reference, have nothing to do with how RSV was similar or not to the other specs between WotLK and WoD.

What you talk about, is how people used to macro things into the least amount of buttons possible so that they wouldn’t actually have to use the different abilities separately.

Which is actually a way to work around any unique design elements that each spec had at the time. Rather than trying to embrace them…

Thus making that argument even more irrelevant.

Actually it’s not. What’s the CD on Multi Shot? Does it compare to Carve’s CD?

You mean as opposed to your statement that Bestial Wrath for BM was the same as Black Arrow for SV?

Or…

Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot.
You ignore how the abilities actually worked, mechanically, in favor of only looking at the frequencies/pacing.

You talk a lot about abilities having the same end goals. Does this not apply to what both current Multi-Shot for MM as well as Carve for SV are meant to achieve?
And how they do it?

I personally think that both of them are different enough to speak to each perspective spec fantasy. But based on your own logic, they aren’t different enough.

Can you use Multi-shot outside that Build?

It’s a talent comparison?

Talents that either affected or replaced a baseline ability in order to achieve the same end goal.
By in the end, doing the same things, mechanically.
Again, this is based on your logic. And what you said about for example Steady Shot and Cobra Shot.

And how you thought looking at todays spec designs was irrelevant to the discussion of the past.

Unless you are Bepples, I doubt that

??? Because it’s relevant?? If tying different effects to Multi-Shot were “too similar” they wouldn’t still be doing it. The fact that they are demonstrates it’s a perfectly valid approach to Hunter AoE and it was in WoD too.

@Naham?

It’s more than that, and I have explained it to you already, in multiple threads

Sort of yeah, but every time those other parts are brought up, you go back towards the pacing-argument.

To be fair, you do understand what I was responding to on this right? He was getting a point wrong, someone who claims to have a vast intellect should grasp.

So, your claim that SV had no way forward after WoD, was only meant to ridicule Bepples for not getting a point of yours?

The trinket did not change SV at a core level

Yes it did.

True, the trinket wasn’t a part of the specs core design.

But it did change how the core worked, as well as how you played and what decisions you made in combat.

I have, it takes me a while to think on things

/thumbs up

There wasn’t too much beyond exotic munitions, and even then that is a rather large headache for the Devs in terms of PvP (Frost Ammo was too strong) but again, I’m using critical thinking on your ideas and I want to think it out throughly

Did you actually read what I intend for Exotic Munitions going forward?

Because it has nothing to do with frost ammo…

In BfA, we have weapon enchants who are pretty much what Exotic Munitions was about in WoD.
My ideas for the effect, are meant to do other things.
Things that further cater towards the core gameplay of RSV and what it would be about.

You want to think it through? Fair enough.
But at least read what my intentions are.

Honestly if Titanstrike went to SV and worked off of the magic from the Gun and Hati they could have done better

SV was not a ‘‘magical’’ spec.

Sure, many abilities did Fire/Frost/Nature and even Shadow damage. But they weren’t actually designed to be magical…

They(devs) just couldn’t justify for those abilities to deal physical damage, considering the thematic design.

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

Actually it’s when you break it down to it’s base levels, it is the same.

No it isn’t. Firing off Black Arrow with a unique animation, firing Explosive Shot with a unique animation, reacting to Lock and Load procs for more free Explosive Shots, firing Serpent Sting with a unique animation, only using Multi-Shot to keep up Serpent Spread while weaving Black Arrow and Explosive Shot between multiple mobs. All instant cast, all fully mobile.

All of this generated a different look and feel to casting Aimed Shots followed by casting Steady Shot in pairs (or Focusing Shot at a longer cast than Aimed) while largely standing still to maximize your Mastery buff occasionally broken up by Chimaera Shot with AoE specifically being Multi-shot spread and Chimaera 2 target cleave only.

All before adding in talents and without considering resource costs versus generation whereby Survival spent the least amount of time actively generating Focus with Cobra Shot due to having free procs of it’s hardest hitting ability (and reduced costs for all spenders when using Thrill of the Hunt) versus Marksmanship which was built entirely around build and spend cycles.

Or switching to Beast Mastery which was designed around Kill Command, Cobra Shot, and Arcane Shots used sparingly outside of Bestial Wrath but entering Bestial Wrath at nearly full Focus to spam as many of all spenders as possible for buffed damage at 1/2 the cost. When every ability had a different cost and thus didn’t really allow for a generally even flow from spending to generating.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Sure, each ability had a short cast time and it generated focus.

So, you understand that you are still casting the same amount of time for the same reasons and the same result. At it’s core it’s the same and the rest is just paint and polish.

And yes, I know that you were talking about the frequence of button presses for each ability when comparing them. But they weren’t even similar on that end. Or…I guess, they both had CDs. But so does quite a few other abilities in this game.
Those two have never shared CDs(lengths).

If you knew this then why post the rest?

You mean as opposed to your statement that Bestial Wrath for BM was the same as Black Arrow for SV?

Or…

Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot.

Both. You made a poor comparison. They do the same task sure, but that’s all.

You ignore how the abilities actually worked, mechanically, in favor of only looking at the frequencies/pacing.

Are you getting it wrong on purpose?

I personally think that both of them are different enough to speak to each perspective spec fantasy. But based on your own logic, they aren’t different enough.

Again, you are using them for the same reason, to get the same result, with the same amount of time to cast with the same nonexistent CD. At their core, the mechanics are the same. Yes somethings played the same because they fit in the rotation, a lot of things played the same because you were getting the same result for the same action. If this is hard for you to understand because of the language difference I understand, please reread it to get the comprehension instead of having us fill in the threads with just repeating ourselves.

It’s a talent comparison?

A little bit yeah. Butchery has charges, Multi doesn’t.

Again, this is based on your logic. And what you said about for example Steady Shot and Cobra Shot.

You should stop this until you actually understand what I am saying, you clearly do not and at this point you look like you are just trolling to me. You are not as bad as Bepples who does it purposely just to get me riled up, but it would be better to just say I don’t understand.

@Naham?

You care to explain further?

Sort of yeah, but every time those other parts are brought up, you go back towards the pacing-argument.

Reread them again.

So, your claim that SV had no way forward after WoD, was only meant to ridicule Bepples for not getting a point of yours?

You are way wrong in this again, see above.

Yes it did.

No it did not and you even explained why.

True, the trinket wasn’t a part of the specs core design.

See.

Did you actually read what I intend for Exotic Munitions going forward?

Yup.

Because it has nothing to do with frost ammo…

I was talking about WoD, sorry for the confusion on that.

SV was not a ‘‘magical’’ spec.

Mastery buffed magical damage. Also they could have taken that way.

@Ragnoiros, read what I said. I don’t like repeating the same argument over and over again.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

and the same result

But the end result is not the same.

Because Cobra Shot did more than just generate focus.

Both. You made a poor comparison

Please, do explain why it was a poor comparison to your previous reply.

Sure Multi-Shot does not have a CD, while Carve does.

But that does not mean that each ability when used, is vastly different to one another. They still do the same things.

And as for the other comparison to your statement about Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow, you explain that by referencing the CDs and how often you used them. Which I said further down, us not true. As not even their CD lengths matched.

They do the same task sure, but that’s all.

We can also go back to Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot here.

Cobra Shot in todays WoW, is an instant cast vs Steady Shot that has a cast time. So, are they different enough for you yet?(in reference to what you said about Multi-Shot vs Carve).

Are you getting it wrong on purpose?

Yes ofc I am!

Really? Why even make such a comment.

Again, you are using them for the same reason, to get the same result, with the same amount of time to cast

I thought you said that Carve was different from Multi-Shot?

If this is hard for you to understand because of the language difference I understand, please reread it to get the comprehension instead of having us fill in the threads with just repeating ourselves.

Not even going to dignify this with a proper answer untill you actually aknowledge that theres more to spec design and uniqueness than just looking at what abilities have CDs or not.

Because it is blatantly obvious that you do not care for flavor or thematics even close to how much you care about for example pacing and CDs.

I’m not saying that it’s wrong to care about those things, but when you flat out state that the rest doesn’t matter…or that you should put that aside.
Just because it doesn’t matter much to you, does not mean that it’s not a valid part of class and spec design.

As an example: you say that just because Steady Shot and Cobra Shot both had a short cast time while generating some focus, they were the same. The rest did not matter.

You can say this about Mages casting Frostbolts/Fireballs or Arcane Blasts as well.

Everything does not have to be entirely different on all levels in order to be justified to put into another spec.

Butchery has charges, Multi doesn’t

And? Like you said, they both still did the same things…

but it would be better to just say I don’t understand

The times where I have asked you, you just brush it off…

You are way wrong in this again, see above.

Which part?

No it did not and you even explained why

See

You said that the trinket did not change SV at a core level.

And I said, yes it did.

It changed a lot of what you based your decisions on in combat, and how you used Black Arrow.

The trinket wasn’t permanent no, but it actually changed the core of SV, as to your claim that it did not…

I was talking about WoD, sorry for the confusion on that

Fair enough, though that’s not really relevant to the quote you made where you referenced my suggestions.

You talked about applying critical thinking to my suggestions.
My suggestions for Exotic Munitions are vastly different to that of the talent we had in WoD. Because most of what that talent did in WoD, is already in the game, sort of.

Mastery buffed magical damage. Also they could have taken that way.

It buffed Elemental damage. The elements of the world are more than just magic schools utilized by casters.

Explosive Shot did Fire damage. Was it a magical ability? No, it was a gunpowder charge of sort, that you attached to your ammo/arrows.

Serpent Sting did Nature damage. Was it a magical ability? No, it was you as a character that had extracted venom from snakes and then applied it to your ammo/arrows.

Immolation Trap of the past.
Explosive Trap.

Etc.
Those aren’t actually magical abilities.
You can freeze things or make things explode/burn without magic.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

But the end result is not the same.

It was there to build focus.

Because Cobra Shot did more than just generate focus.

And when focus capped you hit SrS. It was the same.

Please, do explain why it was a poor comparison to your previous reply.

I did.

We can also go back to Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot here.

I already said why that was wrong, which you already know.

Really? Why even make such a comment.

Why else ask a question you know the answer to?

I thought you said that Carve was different from Multi-Shot?

You spam multi, not carve. SV’s aoe works differently, it’s more related to SrS and Bombs.

Not even going to dignify this with a proper answer untill you actually aknowledge that theres more to spec design and uniqueness than just looking at what abilities have CDs or not.

I could have worded that better. Sorry

And? Like you said, they both still did the same things…

And works differently.

The times where I have asked you, you just brush it off…

When I brush it off is when I’ve already have given a detailed answer.

The trinket wasn’t permanent no, but it actually changed the core of SV, as to your claim that it did not…

It’s because it wasn’t permanent. I gave Bepples swapping out tires on a car for the track as an example. Swapping between racing tires and street tires does effect the car’s performance, but it doesn’t change the car.

My suggestions for Exotic Munitions are vastly different to that of the talent we had in WoD. Because most of what that talent did in WoD, is already in the game, sort of.

I’m mulling them over. ATM Mastery is your only point that I have an issue with.

It buffed Elemental damage. The elements of the world are more than just magic schools utilized by casters.

For RSV that was the same thing.

Explosive Shot did Fire damage. Was it a magical ability? No, it was a gunpowder charge of sort, that you attached to your ammo/arrows.

It did what is classified as magical damage, RL mechanics and IG mechanics do differ.

Those aren’t actually magical abilities.
You can freeze things or make things explode/burn without magic.

Like I said, Elemental damage is still a form of magical damage.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

It was there to build focus

And for example, extend the duration of Serpent Sting.

Or for BM today, reduce the CD of Kill Command(and for talents, even reset it, or reduce the CD of BW).

Something Steady Shot did not/doesn’t do.

And when focus capped you hit SrS. It was the same

What?

I did

Guess I phrased my reply the wrong way then…

What I did was comment on how you said that Muliti-Shot was vastly different from Carve.

And I then mentioned your comparison of Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow and how they did their part to make you feel like you were playing the same spec.

I also mentioned Steady Shot vs Cobra shot because you said that just because they both had a short cast time and generated focus while having no CD, they were also the same.

While you continue to ignore the fact that Cobra Shot also did/does other things beyond generating focus.

Why else ask a question you know the answer to?

Mostly, I ask questions because I do not know the answer, or I did not get what you meant with your answer.

Or, maybe I just haven’t seen your answer.

You spam multi,

You have never really wanted to spam Multi-Shot.

Sure, it does not have a CD, so technically you could spam it. But considering what Multi-Shot actually does for each spec(or did in the past as well) you never want to spam it.

And works differently.

There are similarities, but there are differences as well yes.

Much like with a lot of other abilities you claim have no differences. And are just polished differently.

Example:
Mages and Frostbolt/Fireball and Arcane Blast.

Or Hunter:
Steady Shot
Cobra Shot

Etc…

It’s because it wasn’t permanent

It still changed the core of SV and the playstyle. And it affected your performance.

Racing tires vs street tires on a car changes the performance, it changes the vehicle characteristics and it adds a different ‘‘shine’’ or ‘‘polish’’ to the appearance.

So does different abilities for different specs in WoW.

Tires are a part of the car’s ‘‘core’’. Without them, you can’t really do much with the car…

ATM Mastery is your only point that I have an issue with

The strength of the mastery effect entirely depends on the stat scaling attached to mastery values.

If you don’t want it to get out of proportion, tune down how much it scales up per point of mastery.

Or was there something else that you haven’t yet told me?

For RSV that was the same thing

That was purely for practical reasons, that the devs did not want those abilities to deal physical damage.

It had nothing to do with them(devs) intending for the spec to involve the use of magic(like that of mages or priests etc).

It did what is classified as magical damage

See the above comment.

Elemental damage is still a form of magical damage

Like above, not by intention of designing the spec to be about magic.
It was for practical reasons.

It does not make sense for those abilities to deal physical damage(as defined in WoW).

[Naham-argent-dawn]

I’m going to write out a rant in the HCT and explain it there. It should take a few posts. atm I’m working a maintenance job for 80,000 square feet by myself until my shift is almost over.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Naham-argent-dawn

I’m going to write out a rant in the HCT and explain it there. It should take a few posts. atm I’m working a maintenance job for 80,000 square feet by myself until my shift is almost over

Feel free to post your thoughts in here(US equivalent to what you’read previously)

[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

Original post: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/pre-legion-survival-spec-fantasy/47579?u=briz-zenedar One of the more popular topics on various forums/platforms in terms of class discussions, is the return of what was the old ranged Survival spec we had between WotLK and Warlords of Draenor. First off, this thread and the suggestions in it are not intended to replace what can currently be found within the three existing specs we have on live atm, but for a 4th spec option for the Hunter…

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

I’m going to write out a rant in the HCT and explain it there.

That would simply be a waste of your time as you are the only one equating all 3 specializations (WoLK-WoD) as being nearly exactly the same due to having the same/similar resource generator, Focus spenders, and various cool down abilities.

Forgoing the fact that Bestial Wrath buffed player and pet damage and reduced the focus cost of all abilities by half while having a moderate cool down. Thus creating a play style centered around weaving Arcane Shot, Kill Command, and Cobra Shot outside of Bestial Wrath, then maxing out your Focus to spam Kill Command and Arcane Shot within the Bestial Wrath window. Also skipping over BM’s AoE being stacked cleave within 8-10 yards of the pet, triggered by Multi-shot every 4 secs, but also weaving in Kill Command on cool down. Also, Focus Fire’s proc allowed you to consume you pet’s Frenzy attack speed buff to generate haste for the PC which was useful for faster passive regeneration and Cobra Shot casts(?)

Which differed from Survival placing Black Arrow on the priority target, Serpent Sting on every target in a ~90° arc centered on the target then weaving in Explosive Shot (normal and free procs) across multiple targets and filling in with Arcane Shot and Cobra Shot as needed. Or using traps to generate Lock and Load proc free Explosive Shots. Skipping the fact that passive regeneration plus lucky proc streaks reduced the need to cast Cobra Shot versus BM/MM. Or that Serpent Spread’s DoT had a longer duration than Beast Cleave so you didn’t spam Multi-shot nearly as much and used other, higher damage instant attacks instead. As of WoD, Survival had no cool down ability and no execute either.

Which is again very different from Marksmanship casting Aimed Shot, casting Aimed Shot, Chimaera Shot, casting Steady Shot x2, casting Aimed Shot, over and over without being able to target swap instant cast abilities like BM/SV and with no real baseline AoE due to being Multi-shot only which hit like boiled spaghetti. Rapid Fire being a haste buff that had more impact for MM being cast heavy over BM with only 1 casted ability.

So again, trying to say all 3 specializations played the same to the degree you are trying to convince us of, is just the same as saying my Enhancement Shaman, Fury Warrior, and Windwalker Monk all play the same as well. You are basing the similarity on single basic functions of similar abilities and the presence of builders, spenders, and procs. All of which can be found in those 3 specializations from different classes.

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

You didn’t understand a single point of his post, which is when you broke the specs down they played the same. Different animations have nothing at all to do with the point he was making. From your post it’s clear you don’t even understand the fundamental reasons you used those abilities, and therefore how they were exactly the same between each spec.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Let him be, it’s okay if he doesn’t.

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

I understand perfectly well that having a specialization heavily based around procs of resource free heavy hitting abilities that spent comparatively little time casting felt much different than a specialization that spent nearly all of it’s time casting or a specialization that alternated casted and instant abilities with no consistent flow.

Or that having 15 seconds of boosted damage at 1/2 Focus cost every 90 seconds was different than having no such thing at all.

Or that spending most of your time alternating between 2 casted abilities while not moving was immensely different from having a full toolkit of instant cast, player based, fully mobile damage with no AI issues.

[Fristo-trollbane]

According to warcraftlogs and raiders ive spoken too.

Good to see we are getting some respect even if our player base is tiny

h ttps://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/survival-is-doing-great-in-the-new-raid/233614/49

Survival mythic parses: 904
Survival heroic parses: 12,417

It’s time to face the facts that survival in BFA for PVE is straight poop until blizz reworks or buffs it. Super sad numbers but keep living in this fantasy world I guess.

[Entrerri-proudmoore]

You clearly don’t get it… try reading what he wrote again, only slower.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

I’d need an EU account to post there.