Haha I got a good laugh out of that.
At least all 3 specs were fun and functional back then
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Not really fun, functional in the sense that you did not see any changes for too long and it couldnât be taken further.
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I do not think the numbers are going to win MSV any spots, even though it is on par with BM on most difficulties, it is still going to be held back by being melee.
Think CoS has put many in to a mindset that range is always better than melee, and with so many other melee options that bring extra utility MSV will always be pick dead last.
If you are in a guild that has no issue with letting you play what you want then I see no issues with MSV getting a spot; however, if you are trying to get a spot in a pick up group, it going to be a long wait or they may just ask you with you can switch to range.
The hybrid of melee and range is what will save MSV. It gives MSV more flexibility but not at the cost of loosing dps, like other melee specs. If Blizzard can keep on pushing MSV to being fully mobile melee spec that can dot multiple targets and stronger cleaving MSV may become more desirable as a raiding spec.
This hasnât been a problem with me, typically though my guild knows that Iâm willing to go ranged if needed and I have an idea that my Paladin might see more play @120 as a tank or healer.
It is mostly not an issue for MSV who has a understanding guild, but for any who want to play melee Hunter and do not have support it is a choice of switching specs or being benched.
Hoping Blizzard will push on a melee spec that does not need to worry about a dead zone, and can effectively dps while moving. It opens more utility and shows that MSV is not just Arms with a pet.
I use a lot of words because I believe in being comprehensive and thorough. And I explained a concrete mechanical difference either. Youâre just minimising all mechanical differences through the use of false equivalencies. Yeah, when you ignore all the differences between specs they do start to look the same. Who would have thought. Every example you gave here is either a) something that is logically part of the Hunter class and therefore shared between all specs (some of which still are) or b) a real mechanics difference that you are dismissing.
I really did feel in WoD when I switched between BM, MM, and SV that I was switching between three different styles of a core Hunter identity, and thatâs exactly what specs should be. They should be common enough to actually be of the same class while different enough to be meaningful. I think WoD, while still having room for improvement, achieved that and I enjoyed picking the best spec for each situation or just the one I felt like playing at the moment. Thatâs why I donât respect any post-Legion revisionism telling me, contrary to my own experience, that they were the same specs.
Why even mention BC here? There were 4 expansions between BC and Legion, each one working towards further diversifying the specs. If we are going to talk about the best steps to follow the WoD design, we talk about WoDâs design.
Apparently not too similar for BM and MM to still both be using Multi-Shot with different additional effects now.
Rain of Fire and Blizzard are also, on a functional level, the same thing and they are in different classes. Hunters used to have that, well; thatâs why they removed Volley in the first place. Youâre not going to get some amazing variety out of âa spell that does damage to multiple targetsâ, so basing the spec difference within a class around additional effects to Multi-Shot is actually a pretty good approach. Itâs not just a flavour difference, either. SV, for example, worked better when the enemies are spread because it applied a DoT whereas BMâs, while being more powerful on paper, requires close cleave from the pet. MMâs one did indeed suck but BFAâs iteration shows they are capable of more unique appraoches.
Those items in late WoD are important because they are candidate mechanics for the core class in the upcoming expansion. This is something we see in early expansions too. An example: In WoD, Avengerâs Shield didnât have much mitigation value for Paladins and the T18 set bonus made it give a damage shield. That damage shield was later incorporated into the Artifact in Legion.
The reason itâs important in Survivalâs case is because it introduced a mechanic that was a) pretty fun and b) very unique in the class. We had never seen such an effective way of conveying a single-target damage increase via multidotting in the class before. It was simple, intuitive, and it worked. That mechanic alone would have made SV, a spec that was already very different to MM whether you admit it or not, more-than-sufficiently distinct from the other specs. Most importantly, it wasnât just some concept: it was in the game and we could try it out (free testing!). Notice how itâs something that both fits in with Survivalâs theme and has a mechanical purpose as well.
You keep repeating this in your posts but it doesnât hold up.
Firstly, this implies that they should change classes for the sake of changing them. Maybe Hunters hadnât seen a WotLK->Cata level change because they didnât need one. Change for the sake of change is generally a bad thing.
Secondly, like I said before, the existence of the Archimonde trinket mechanic is hard evidence that there were absolutely ways of taking Survival further. Hell, the short-lived changes on the WoD beta are proof of it too.
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You should do it if you believe in doing that then.
No I am not. No matter how much you want to pretend that I am, I am not.
When you take away the paint and polish you realize that Iâm right. Just admit it. Take Cobra Shot and Steady Shot, one extended SrS and did nature damage, the other did not. Why did you use either? You spent a 1.5 second cast to regain Focus. Wait, the same casting time for the same purpose, and the same result? But they are different⌠Now, it was the same mechanic, the same reason to cast it, same result. Stop acting like itâs different. Now you are good at google, you can find the same argument I have given before on the subject before. I really donât like to repeat myself, something you have no problem with.
Just admit that you are wrong. Everything I said was correct. You like to give the same boring argument, but the truth is that all you have is Class Fantasy/Flavor and you really cannot go beyond that. Is that why you took so long to respond even though youâve made other posts between those times?
I had to look at my bars to see myself. There has been several times where I went Big Red because I thought that I was casting Black Arrow.
While I agree with this statement, the reality of the time fell way too short.
I still think that itâs more about one hating change, your posts are too angry otherwise. They took your pet spec away and you have been a prolific troll. Kindwolf came here because you helped make it easier to post here. You are compulsed to post your anti-MSV tripe Pavlovâs subjects when they hear bells.
Why not?
Seriously, what are you talking about? We got a few abilities, be we still played the same. Not only that, but itâs not even just me that sees that. Iâm just the only one who reads your long winded posts and respond with more than just glancing through it.
Why bring up now in a conversation about the past?
My point still stands unchanged. Maybe it went over your head, but I am willing to explain it to if it did. Basically Racing tires, while treadless (which is why they are called Racing Slicks or just Slicks) offer more traction. This changes both acceleration and handling to a noticeable degree, but the car is not itself changed mechanically. You take out the trinket (bare with this simplification) and SV was unchanged. The same with the tires. You want to divert the discussion away from the core mechanical because you canât win otherwise.
Yes it does hold up. Your posts donât hold up that well, which is probably why you hide that using a lot of words. Itâs a classic technique to hide a lacking in the discussion. Both politicians and clergy do the same. I have even seen teachers do it. A great example is found in an old Charlie Brown cartoon when they have to write a book report on Peter Rabbit.
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Because hunters class design for mm is in a bad spot. What do you expect to happen in a class form when a spec that use to be a top favourite is garbage
By todays standards, you could argue that parts of the specs were too similar. Although that didnât really include the core/signature abilities for each spec.
Sure, talents back then were for the most par the same for all specs, as by intentional design by the devs.
You canât just look at how an ability works, mechanically.
As an example, just because 2 different abilities both dealt damage, did not mean that they were the same.
It isnât just about the ââwhatââ, but also about the ââhowââ.
Bepples example of comparing Beast Cleave with Multi-Shot that applied Serpent Sting, is a very good example actually.
Sure, the end result was that both styles dealt damage to enemies. But the way they did it, was very different.
Not to mention that one focused on using a pet while the other focused on your ranged weapon.
Arcane Shot?
Yep, not the best weâve had.
Was happy when they decided that only MM should have it.
Personally, I would even say that Arcane, does not fit the class at all.
Yeah, one was a direct, pet-based attack. The other was a DoT, that you used your ranged weapon to apply.
Big redâŚ
Are you comparing Bestial Wrath to Black Arrow?
I meanâŚsure, you pressed a button and in the end, you dealt more damage because of it.
But, sorry Naham, if this is how you compare mechanical similarities, there is little we can do to argue with you.
Bestial Wrath, is a passive power-up. It doesnât deal any direct damage.
Black Arrow, is a target based direct attack that deals damage over time.
Part from the end result of being capable to deal more damage, there is nothing similar about those two. Not even the CD between usesâŚ
The reason he questioned this was because in BC, we did not have the ranged SV spec we are currently asking for to return.
Thus, your arguments for why SV and MM were similar, wouldnât apply to BC anyway.
Are we still talking about ranged SV?
You mightâve felt like this on a subjective level, sure.
But looking at the core of each spec objectively, no they werenât the same.
The only similar things really, was that they were all damage-based specs.
And they all used ranged weapons. Some more, some less.
To varying degree, they also used pets. Again, some more, some less.
Considering what Legion did to specs overall in terms of uniqueness and identity, and if youâve read my suggestions for what I imagined that RSV couldâve been, going forward.
Yes, it could very well have been taken further. A lot actuallyâŚ
For comparison.
Based on your deduction.
As an example, currently, all three specs have the talent A Murder of Crows.
Both BM as well as MM, has the talent Barrage.
MM even has a second Barrage, itâs just called Rapid Fire.
Both BM and MSV, has Kill Command as signature abilities.
Sure, one spends focus, the other generates focus. But they could at least have bothered to rename it. Heck, they couldâve made Flanking Strike the MSV versionâŚ
Actually agree with you on this part.
Anything external that does not fill a core role in the class design is not considered part of class/spec design. And, is only temporary by design.
In Legion we had Artifact Weapons, and you could argue that they were part of class design in Legion. Due to the impact they had, and the fact that they were meant to stay with you for an entire expansion.
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They were way too similar even in the past. I have to go to work so Iâll go further later, even though I hate repeating myself. For the most part, you are falling under the same trap Bepples is on this. BC, and Serpent Spread, you are getting a massive AoE damage buff, BC might as well be a DOT, by doing the same action. Even with MM, you are getting the same result with the same ability for different Specs with just enough minor Flavor to make those who donât want to think about it say that itâs different. A good question is âWhy would I come to the conclusion that they are the same?â
In the meantime, I would like to expand on this statement a bit.
Granted, like you said, you plan to go further into what you mean after work so Iâll reserve âfinal judgementâ for then.^^
Having said thatâŚ
In reference to the topic at hand, where we are discussing diversity and uniqueness in terms of class and ability design.
You say that me and Bepples have fallen into a trap. I guess, by this you mean that we donât only look at mechanical diversity when determining uniqueness.
The thing is, this is World of Warcraft. Itâs a fantasy-game, and a MMORPG.
If youâre only basing your judgement on the portion that is mechanics, I would say that anyone who does this, is the one who has fallen into a trap.
Can this be a result of the change in design philosophies we have seen with later expansions? Perhaps.
Is it also based on individual mindsets and preferences? Due to a personal background etc? Yes, maybe so.
But in a game such as WoW, saying that people who determines diversity in design, on the underlying intended fantasy as well as thematical design of abilities and animations, saying that they are wrongâŚI would argue is factually incorrect.
Now, I agree that if a spec would have 10 different abilities, all being ranged shots that deal the same amount of damage instantly while doing nothing else. Even if they were to have different names and icons attached to them. I would agree that this, would be a case of abilities being too similar to one another. And that it wouldnât speak to any diversity/uniqueness, almost at all.
Like I said above, I know you plan to further explain/expand on your reply when you get home, so I really hope that the quote from below, is just I who have misunderstood your point with what you were trying to say.
Again, sureâŚboth Bestial Wrath as well as Black Arrow are abilities you use in order to eventually having dealt more damage as a result.
However, the mechanical design behind those two, are about as different as it can be. While still having the same end goal(more damage).
Note: If, by âgoing Big Redâ, you donât actually refer to Bestial Wrath. Then fair enough, my bad.
Just that I have on several occasions in the past seen people refer to BW by saying exactly those words: âBig Redâ.
In the past, the animation of BW turned you into a redâish color as opposed to now when itâs more on the orange side.
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No, I meant that I thought that I was playing SV when I was playing BM as the rotation I used at the time was too similar between the two.
Well, Iâve already talked about Multi-Shot and Cobra versus Steady and how they are just the same shot anyways. I also mentioned that I had to look at my bars to see what Spec I was playing at times because they played too similar, which has to make a logical person to think about why I would say that.
1.5 Second Focus build, Arcane to Dump, 6 Second Ability/AiS (Which was limited because of itâs cost and Cast Time), BA/BW,Chimera on CD, Rapid Fire on CD, Proc Based Burst based off of ability use (Traps forcing LnL, Pet attacks for Focus Frenzy stacks, Steady for Insta-Aimed) the same CC combo Scatter/Trap or Pet/Trap, same kiting, Frost Trap, Concussive Shot and Frost Trap to Kite, Counter Shot, build focus casting a 1.5 second shot only to dump with Arcane. I even had my keybindings done the same through out the Specs.
Ignore the fantasy part of the RPG and look at it as just a game. I thought that I got my point across when I mentioned Steady and Cobra giving the same result for the same cast time.
Every other melee class is missing out compared to SV right now. You have stealth, huge Ret Paladin level burst, strong sustained damage, strong cleave, a pet to tank or give raid utility, and extreme mobility compared to most other melee.
SV is the best melee spec in the game right now. I firmly believe that if we had as many SV players as we do say, Ret or DH, than SV would be the top melee spec for ever aspect of WoW.
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Pistol/pistol theif and engineer in GW2 were the best thing to happen to MMOs imo. Sadly the games endgame couldnt be held up by some of the most fun gameplay out there.
Tend to agree that msv has alot of tools, especially in pVp, compared to other melee. Your average raider has no idea how to use them properly or handle the keybinds. 4 button specs like dh and ret that have a basement lvl skill floor will always be more popular.
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Sure, thatâs why there are 87,963 total parses for Fury, Outlaw, and Havoc versus 877 for Survival.
Paladin players can offspec to tank or healer, DH players can offspec to tank.
Survival players can only offspec to ranged DPS and ranged DPS are more valuable in instanced content meaning your Hunter will almost always be better off playing range over melee versus your: rogue, warrior, paladin, monk, death knight, or demon hunter.
Hunter, recognized by Ion Hazzikostas and the development team, is a class that appeals nearly universally to players wanting ranged combat using ranged weapons. Players self selecting to melee thus overwhelmingly choose one of the other 12 DPS or 6 melee tank specializations over Survival whereas all players who self select for range weapon user are funneled into 2 specializations that havenât really been fun in ~5 years.
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Sir⌠warcraft logs minimal survival parses says otherwise. On top of our arena representation of being the lowest in the game⌠for yet another season. Itâs time to wake up and realize that this spec needs a major rework.
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Thatâs going too far in admiring Survival.
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