The virgin Xidane v.s. the chad Bepples
3 Likes
I just want the focus of survival to be in traps. I prefer melee, but Iâm ok with range as long as the focus is on traps.
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Uhm, no. The specs did not become more similar over time. It was in fact the exact opposite of that.
And also, what youâre arguing against here is how every spec in the game has evolved over time. Fair enough I guess but that is not really a valid argument relative to the current discussion.
Not entirely sure what youâre going for here. This(tactical play and setup) is part of our gameplay to a much higher degree than ever before. In general, with a few exceptions ofc.
This combined with your other suggestions/requests makes for a fairly odd mix between a ranged spec and a melee-spec.
Not sure what value you expect this to bring to the class. Nor how it would bring more strengths as well as weaknesses that arenât already present.
Where did you find SV as a defined fantasy in WC3?
Besides, WoWâs approach to gameplay design is massively different from WC3.
Looking at it based on fantasy and theme, I agree with this.
But for the sake of practicality in the modern gameâŚmaybe not as much.
the amount of cringe in this post overrides any amount of sarcasm u mightâve meant with that vernacular.
How is anyone going to take your anti-MSV posts serious when we all know you use the word Chad when referring to yourself.
5 Likes
I kinda like the idea of returning to DoTs with healing and focus generation. But Iâd rather focus more on melee.
Serpent Sting (being melee), Lacerate, and Searing Blade as the poison/bleed/fire effects.
Make Mongoose Bite and Butchery baseline. Even make them work together with the same buff so we can have some decent AoE. Maybe even change Shrapnel Bomb or a trap to spread the DoTs?
Finally a cooldown to make all our melee abilities ranged for a short time instead of just one. Just my 2 cents.
You could get a job at CNN with these photoshopping skills, but I beat the crap out of you myself several times despite your premade group peeling me off you nonstop.
You werenât even playing as SV so why are you comparing?? Rofl. You used MM, an op newb spec that specializes in group engagements like random BGs. Why are you making comparisons with something so obviously situational?
Meanwhile I was a melee spec on a random team that didnât speak English, and I was afk for 90% of that BG. Again, what are you proud of exactly?
Itâs easy to do what you did given the nature of the battle and that Mythic Raid gear you wasted a ridiculous amount of your life getting. Yet Iâm supposedly the virgin? You seem to conflate gear with talent, yet it requires none to get.
Additionally, you do realize that nothing is balanced right now, right? So these
stats youâre showing are meaningless.
Feel free to duel me anytime without a group to hide behind.
Again with this paranoid talk. âHeâs trying to tricks us! Gollum! Gollum!â
As I said before several times, I donât play for those reasons, and Iâm not the one bragging about random BG kills, - while not even using Survival - the topic of discussion here.
Iâll explain again: You can do good damage in melee OR ranged combat, Survival is designed to adapt to the situation. Against a melee specialist, you use your ranged more, against something else, you might want to get in their face a bit. You alternate depending on who youâre fighting. BM would specialize in melee, MM would specialize in range, and SV would be a jack of all trades.
Youâve got to stop thinking in PvE terms. Itâs not all about mindless spamming and damage charts. Survival could turn battles around with tactics, rather than the barbarian with a cudgel mentality you have.
Again, itâs not melee⌠Drink a coffee or something before you reply
I think arena needs work for all the reasons Iâve listed. It needs an audience, it needs more room for creative thinking ie professions, and most of all, skill needs to be the REAL factor in victory.
Victory is hollow when you have a gear advantage over another player.
The rest of your comments are loaded with glaring hypocrisy, name calling, and interpretations rooted in your own insecurities. You distort my statements with your internal anxiety. You say Iâm bad for not having XYZ achievements yet that rubbish means nothing to me and I beat you up. You say Iâm bullying people yet you brag about kill charts in a random BG where you bullied low geared players. 120s (Currently 50âs) are always at Hellfire, dude.
Duel me instead of boring me with this catty prattle. Youâre over-geared as hell so you can at least pretend youâre a decent fighter.
âŚthen why on Earth were you in that BG if youâre just gonna AFK?
This is the one mentality I will never understand. Waiting in the queue to get in the BG, then almost immediately AFK. Why? Just⌠why?
And Iâll be the first one to admit that I never got into PvP, since I donât have that competitive streak. Still, I try to keep an eye on the PvP scene because my friends and sister love to play PvP and I want them to be able to rave about it to me.
That being said⌠I donât think âbullyingâ is the right word here. They all were in a BG that they signed up for. Itâs different from a level-capped player going to a leveling zone to attack the low-level players there.
One is bullying, and the other isnât.
2 Likes
It became more like MM in that it relied entirely on ranged combat, losing many of its melee defensive moves and tactics. Turning SV into a derivative BM spec isnât the answer. Especially when BM is supposed to be the melee spec.
Not at all. Itâs completely the opposite. Every class has mad self healing, gap closers, cc, and so on. The game is a total mess.
I also feel that secondary stats throw the game out of alignment. They need to ditch those and have each ability have a set time, only modified by talents. The current setup is too gear dependent and harder to balance.
Think of it this way: Youâre fighting a melee specialist like a Warrior, you donât want to pit your mail armor against his plate and crazy strength, so you use your ranged attacks and traps to wear him down before going toe to toe with him.
Flip the coin and think about fighting a ranged specialist like an MM Hunter. You donât want engage him in a direct firefight, so you get in his face and wear him down. On that note, MMâs aimed shot should be subject to melee disruption, given its power.
In organized PvP, you best trait is your tactical superiority, using traps to turn the tide of battles. I added those trap bonuses for a reason. Theyâre much more powerful than normal traps and can give you a great ambush factor. Camouflage should be a baseline for SV, and the CC and trap damage should be much more effective.
Flexibility and intelligence is the hallmark of Survival.
I didnât, but WoW established early on and for years after, that SV was the trap spec. As for WC3, Rexxar is the quintessential BM hunter and the original mold for the spec.
That and it just makes more sense if you think about. A wild barbarian who goes into battle with two ranging beasts tearing people apart with berserker fury.
Agreed.
The team was incompetent and losing ground rapidly. Instead of waiting 15mins as a deserter, I got free honor while I was working on something else. I normally donât like that, but this team put in zero effort and did not deserve my respect.
Personally, I have a wildly competitive streak, so the nature of a victory or defeat matters a great deal to me. I feel that defeating someone with sheer numerical power isnât a true test of my abilities, and I apply that logic to people like Bepples who donât understand the difference between skill and mindless gear grinding.
In real life Iâm all about hard work, but contrary to Bepples belief, this is a game, and PvP is supposed to be a contest of skill and wits, not who vegetates the most on gear grinding. Maybe for world PvP, but not for BGs or arenas.
True, they signed up for the BG, but the purpose of the BG and even arena is to win so you can get gear - yet players arenât given a fair chance to compete when over-geared freaked mow them down with OP specs instead of talent.
1 Like
we are the unwanted spec .
Blizzard HAS done nothing to fix this spec. or address it. they gave up on us. At this point waiting for them to take it away like , how they taken away the shaman enhancement using 2 handers
First off, this wasnât just something that applied to Survival.
They took away the concept of melee from the class as a whole. Why? They did not want it to focus on melee-combat(at the time).
And yes, this affected SV more than BM and MM becauseâŚwell prior to then, SV was just a talent category that contained talents focusing on tracking, traps, melee, defensives, and some damage. Much of it, in the form of different types of added utility. And since it did not have a dedicated playstyle tied to it prior to becoming a spec, this part of the argument doesnât really hold up anyway.
During the time that followed, they also added in more and more ranged abilities(with Cata, when they introduced the concept of Core Specializations). This meant that they HAD to design 3 different specs for each class. And since the Hunter class is considered a single role-class, that meant that each spec within had to focus on ranged combat.
Since then, their minds have changed obviously, and we now have a new type of sub-role added in the form of a melee-dps spec.
AnywayâŚ
By the time Survival became an actual Core Specialization(Cata), the only element of melee that was specifically still a part of it, was Counterattack. So, the only actual element it couldâve lost that was focusing on melee, was this ability.
No hunter spec shouldâve been turned into a melee specâŚ
Not sure then what you actually mean by âtactical playââŚ
None of what you mentioned actually removes the need for tactical play. Quite the opposite in fact.
The biggest problem isnât gear and stat-scaling. Itâs the fact that all classes are now fundamentally designed to only function properly when affected by e.g.-systems.
All these temporary systems, the ever-changing paradigm of borrowed powers, these are what messes with our gameplay and with class balance the most.
Why would the melee-part of this be considered a strength if you have options to stay away from the enemy?
You could ofc call this the intended weakness that is brought butâŚwhere would you find the strength part then?
If anything, Camo should be baseline for the whole class. As it was originally.
Looking at his portrayal of the beast maser fantasy(the focus on beasts/pets) sure.
The melee? Not really.
Yes, they became frustrated with smarter concepts and took the lazy way out by making SV a second BM spec, but as the title suggests, weâre here to stop complaining and start making solutions.
Inaccurate but youâre entitled to your opinion. As for that first bit of rambling, I donât see how repeating everything I said in a longer drawn out form counters my argument. SV did turn into a ranged spec, therefore I am right.
Any form of cc is tactical. When a spec has lots of cc, that becomes its support roll as opposed to crazy levels of damage or healing. Or at least thatâs how it should be in a sensible setup. Survival never topped the damage charts, but it made up for that in utility. The problem came in when brain dead players didnât understand the importance of it and thought that topping damage charts meant more than winning the fight.
The first thing you said that makes sense, but secondary stats are still a problem, and overall just no necessary.
It doesnât and never said it did. Did you even read what you just quoted? I specifically pointed out that you donât use melee against a melee specialist because youâre wearing male armor and will get crushed in a prolonged scrap. You use your ranged powers to wear them down or kill them.
Conversely, when fighting ranged opponents with more firepower than yourself, you go melee to disrupt and spin circles around them. See how it works? You vary your tactics based on what youâre fighting.
As for traps and tactics, thatâs how you help in a big group fight. If you study oldschool traps, youâll notice they have stronger slowing effects, and a 25% chance to immobilize people trudging through them, or in the case of Snake Trap, disrupt and slow casting speeds. I wanna see more of that, especially with an immolation trap that makes people run around on fire while taking damage. The game even has a perfect animation for it.
No, thatâd be overpowered, especially in the hands of MM.
Then you didnât play WC3 or Heroes of the Storm. Rexxar performed better in melee range and hacked people to pieces with his pets. He used throwing weapons for medium ranged combat, hence why I suggested the talent. Of all the ranged typed characters in the game (Sylvanas, Tyranda etcâŚ) he was the shortest ranged and most melee centric. He didnât have traps, or poisons, or grenades, he just went nuts and tore them apart.
In conclusion: If any spec was to go melee and represent Rexxar, itâd be Beast Mastery.
1 Like
I do agree
but nothing being done and shadow lands is coming soon thatâs the big issue .
Itâs true, theyâve been out of touch with fans, and SV has lost its identity. The devs are stretched thin and getting screwed over by an increasingly unethical company, which in turn affects the quality of their work. The best we can do is tell them what we want and speak with our wallets if they persist in this lazy approach. Not just in regards to hunters or High Elves, or story, but whatever else theyâre cutting corners on in general.
This game definitely needs to be more story driven, and weâre not seeing much of that in this new expansion.
Why is it inaccurate? By all meansâŚexplain.
No hunter spec shouldâve been turned into a melee spec because they shouldâve added that melee-spec as a 4th option from the start. Completely removing playstyle options from a class in favor of implementing something entirely different(on a fundamental level) is not the right way to go about it.
No matter how much you think a melee-spec fits for example the Beast Master fantasy.
It wasnât a repeat. Nor does it make for the same point as what you wrote.
Your argument is basically that âthey removed all elements from the Survival-spec and therefor, making it more like MMâ.
My argument is that âSurvival when it still had some actual elements of melee-focus, wasnât even a specialization at all. It wasnât designed to provide a dedicated playstyle at that point in timeâ.
See the difference?
It still sounds as if youâre talking about Survival as it was prior to becoming an actual Core Specialization. This is why your argument(s) donât hold up.
Yes, in the beginning the talent category: Survival, held a lot of utility and defense-oriented traits.
Why?
Everything optional that wasnât focusing on pets/bestial aspects(BM) or on the ranged weapon(MM), was assigned to the Survival category.
The Hunter class originally had 3 main features portrayed through the design:
Beast Mastery - Pets, pets, and more beast-stuff.
Marksmanship - All about that ranged weapon.
Survival - Added survivability, content type-based. More utility, more defenses.
But, AGAIN, the Survival talent category did not ever provide us with a dedicated core playstyle. That only came once they introduced Core Specs to the game. Survival originally meant to provide the base class with more utility and defensive capabilities.
By this I assume that you mean the âdevsâ? As they were the ones to implement Core specs to the game, thus moving away from the support focus of SV when it was still a talent category.
They are(have become more of a problem) yes. Although not on their own but more on the fact that they have increased the scaling-factor of stats/secondary stats by a lot more compared to the somewhat more linear scaling we had early on. Before they added multiple difficulty levels to all types of e.g. content etc.
Secondary stats make for part of how you progress your characterâs power over the course of an expansion/several expansions. You might not think that the added power is necessary. But a lot of players want that from a game such as WoW.
Yes.
Sure.
You can do that with BM already, without needing to rely on melee-abilities.
Traps? Agreed.
It wasnât when they first implemented itâŚ
Yes I did.
You misunderstood what I said.
Rexxar is a major lore character. While certain elements of a particular spec might be inspired by/based on what he does. Donât expect any hunter spec to be a âcompleteâ representation of a major lore character.
And, like I said earlier. If they wanted the class to have a melee-spec, they shouldâve added it as a 4th option from the start.
3 Likes
For me, I think Survivalâs biggest problem is viability rather than play style. I quite enjoy playing it, but it brings hunter utility without being able to do it at range, and it doesnât have the right kind of utility or damage profile to earn a melee slot, especially over melee classes that have multiple options.
Two changes Iâd like to see myself:
- Make Wildfire Infusion baseline, and replace it with a talent that makes KC cleave or do AoE, giving an option to speed up the AoE rotation
- Turn Tar Trap into an AoE stun or AoE silence for Survival. It needs some sort of utility that Marks and BM donât bring, other than just a shorter interrupt CD.
Just give surivial some unique utility and some baseline stuff and we fine.
Honestly even with utility it wonât be picked over bm who can literally do all the raid mechanics while doing 100% dps
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Am I the only one that actually liked Legion Survival? 
Sure it was a very busy spec but it could have used maybe a dot or two to be removed from existence and I would have been really happy with the spec.
I even met another Survival Hunter at the time during Antorus and he felt the same way.
I would honestly be fine with survival hunter if it had a bit better trap utility, and a balanced talent row with mongoose bite. Iâm sure there are alot of people out there that like mongoose bite but Iâm not one of them haha
I do agree with the idea of a 4th spec, but the way you said it before about excluding a primarily melee spec is wrong. Iâd be happy to see a 4th spec that encompasses the fantasy of a melee Beastmaster whoâs like Rexxar or the Berserker Troll Axethrowers of Warcraft II.
Regenerates like Wolverine and uses a combination of melee and medium ranged throwing attacks. They use beasts to keep the pressure going while they chase after their target.
Again, exactly what I said. Survival went from having melee flexibility to being a purely ranged spec, like MM. You literally just said exactly what I said but rephrased.
That being said, Survival in TBC was distinctly different from the other two. It had several spells the others lacked and enhancements to traps and melee that gave it a totally different playstyle from its sister specs. Itâs a totally different style of combat. Look over the talents, itâs more unique than you remember, Blizzard just simplified and condensed the talents and made them more restrictive in later years.
Again, why are we rehashing this? No one ever said anything to the contrary and my entire premise has been about marrying the past version of Survival. Itâs not hard to imagine updated versions of this.
Again, itâs not difficult to imagine updated versions of those powers and integration with more recent versions, so what are you talking about? Honestly, what is your point?? Who cares if it wasnât a dedicated spec back in the day, how does that stop them from using older spells now?? It seems like youâre arguing in circles with no core point. I donât even you know what youâre getting at.
Yes, the devs dumbed multiple specs and classes down to accommodate the whining of players who didnât understand anything beyond dps and healing charts.
The playstyle of most classes is crushingly dull before reaching max gear, and that needs to go. Gear gathering is tedious enough as it is, much less doing it with a class that feels broken for most of the journey. Leveling used to be funâŚ
If the game improved activities and storytelling, it wouldnât have to rely on simple gear gathering for motivation.
Then why ask a question that completely ignores what I just said? I feel you have difficulty conceding a point and thatâs why you insist on making strawman arguments. You keep taking things that I clearly know or have already said, then repeat it to me as if you were informing me, and as if it were somehow getting your point across. This is getting ridiculous.
Well Iâm not talking about BM⌠Again, another strawman. Iâm talking about getting SV back to its roots in an updated and fun way. Whatâs the issue?
MMâs damage is through the roof, I can already imagine trailblazer being stack with invis to setup those meteoric shots. Youâre being greedy.
No I didnât. You said melee wasnât in the spirit of Rexxarâs gameplay, and clearly it was. He used thrown weapons at medium range and hacked enemies to pieces when they got too friendly. Nothing to misunderstand.
But thatâs what Blizzard wanted. They said they wanted a Rexxar spec, but instead of modifying HIS spec, they took mine and turned it into an illogical mess.
Though I agree a 4th spec would make plenty of sense.
Itâs not my problem you get bewildered by memes.
So, for the other people reading this: it was an Ashran game where I had the Ancient Artifact and was therefore doing triple damage. Xidane evidently didnât know what the Artifact was while also buying into the SV marketing that says SV is capable of putting out significant ranged pressure, because he ran out and shot a few Serpent Stings at me before promply getting globalled by a double-tapped Aimed Shot after which time he AFKed in the back. Do note I have 0 deaths in this BG so this âbeat the crap out of youâ comment is nonsense. Oh, wait, I must have photoshopped the picture apparently (lol).
To Xidane: Iâm not particularly proud of getting 50+ KBs in an Ancient Artifact game. It happens. The reason I posted this was because I knew it would prompt you to blow up like this, primarily because a) you have a self-assigned persona of being a PvP god which evidently doesnât pan out and b) it demonstrates that Marksmanship is just a better spec than Survival despite not having this melee âversatilityâ you harp on about. I donât need AA games to prove that, either. I also have games like the one yesterday where you once again over-extended to try to get at me and when that didnât work out you left the game before you could be killed.
Calling someone manipulative is not being paranoid. When you apply marketing spin to an idea you know isnât welcome to try to sell it to people who otherwise donât agree, thatâs manipulative. This entire thread you have been trying to sell a different variety of melee Survival but you keep insisting it doesnât count as that.
This doesnât actually follow from anything that was posted before but if it makes you feel better go right on ahead.
This is marketing spin. Survival is not âbase Hunter plus melee capabilityâ. Itâs âbase Hunter minus ranged capabilityâ. Survival is in fact less versatile than the other Hunter specs. Itâs the only Hunter spec with a ranged penalty. Both BM and MM are capable of doing their full damage potential anywhere from 0 to 40 yards (more for MM, in fact). Survival is only capable of doing its full damage potential up to 5 yards. This is why we call it a melee spec regardless of the fact that it can do more ranged damage than the average melee.
This is why I call your language manipulative. Youâre covering up a major weakness of Survival by advertising it as a strength, largely on thematic grounds rather than practical.
P.S. Wanting BM to be fully melee and SV to be partly melee means that youâve effectively looked at the last 4 years of Survival faceplanting and being a circus freak of class design in general and thought âhmm, what the Hunter class needs is more meleeâ. Delusional.
Letâs be clear: any suggestion for a Hunter spec with a range-based penalty, either for being too close or being too far away, is outside the realm of acceptability. And itâs not possible to have a melee damage toolkit without incurring a range-based penalty. You would end up being either stronger or weaker in melee range.
At the very most we can consider Wing Clip being baseline and perhaps a melee stance via talent for an existing spec. NONE of the baseline Hunter specs should have a melee damage toolkit, period. We are a ranged class.
Only in Xidaneâs fantasy world do profession gimmicks equate to skill but gear advantage is bad.
In case itâs still difficult to understand because youâve never made it to such a position; getting the gear takes skill.
This is spin doctoring again.
MM also had those melee abilities. They were baseline to the class. SV just had talents that passively buffed melee damage/survivability. Those talents, by the way, were high up in the Survival tree and therefore generally taken by PvPing MM Hunters as well. Beyond these passive differences, SV and MM had identical basic toolkits with only utility/cooldown differences until WotLK. Survival was absolutely more distinct from MM after WotLK than it was before and that distinction only increased over time.
Um, what a ridiculous statement. Secondary stats make the game more interesting. As MM I can focus on Mastery to get a really high range, or Versatility to be tankier. Plus, the game has literally always had secondary stats. You canât complain about homogenisation in PvP while also asking for the end of gear customisation.
Helpful reminder that youâve done no content worth any iota of skill whatsoever so youâre in no place to call out other people on âmindlessâ gameplay.
Lol.
For one, it used to actually be baseline and that was at a time where we had the same or more utility than we do now.
Secondly, the Camouflage tier is pathetic. Itâs not like stacking Trailblazer or Natural Mending with Camo is going to suddenly make us broken.
Marksmanshipâs power right now is largely predicated on everyone having relatively low health values compared to damage values after prepatch, plus the removal of PvP scaling templates that were extremely unfavourable to BM and MM. Marksmanship is a decent PvP spec but it sure as hell isnât the best and there are plenty of ways to counter one in a competitive PvP environment.
This is such an absurdly revisionist argument itâs hard to believe you even played TBC. The overwhelming majority of differences between the specs back then were passive. Here are the unique abilities for each spec:
| Marksmanship | Survival |
|---|---|
| Aimed Shot | Deterrence |
| Scatter Shot | Counterattack |
| Trueshot Aura | Wyvern Sting |
| Silencing Shot | Readiness |
Thatâs literally it. The only one of these which isnât utility/cooldown is Aimed Shot. On that note, letâs also not forget that Aimed Shot and Deterrence were so high up in their respective trees that they were available to either spec; PvPing Hunters generally had both Aimed Shot and Deterrence. So there were in fact NO rotational differences and the âtotally different playstyleâ you are spin doctoring here was relegated to situational utility, and not even that much of it. Meanwhile, they BOTH had situational melee (this was baseline, not an SV-specific thing) and many of SVâs strong passives were high up in tree and therefore available to MM Hunters as well.
In later expansions, Survival and Marksmanship would have truly different gameplay styles at a core level. Not only that, but they would keep many of their unique passives from earlier times. Marksmanship would keep Careful Aim. Survival would keep Trap Mastery and Entrapment.
To argue that TBC SV was more distinct from MM than later iterations is delusional fantasy. As I said, it seriously makes me doubt you ever played the expansion. Itâs like you had a brief look over their talent trees and assumed you knew what you were talking about. Somehow, out of all the crap in this thread, this point here has surpassed all the rest of them in pure ridiculousness.
7 Likes