Okay look, this thread is about sharing ideas for SV hunter, not a space for you to vent your whiny rants. I am not reading all that garbage. I’ve wasted enough time with your weak strawman arguments and lowbrow understanding of the game and its possibilities. You’re a yappy dog attacking something you don’t understand.
Either share ideas or leave. Better yet, quit talking your way out of a duel. Put up or shut up.
How good are all those Survival changes for Shadowlands!
I stopped reading when he said ranged dot spec… EFF that. Surv is waaay better as a melee spec! Love it! Keep it up Blizz!! ignore this clown.
We’d know if they made any lol. We got completely forgotten this expansion.
You’ve got a right to your opinion, but you’re clearly the clown with a comment like that. BM would be a far superior melee spec and with two huge beasts it would keep up with other classes, unlike our crappy spec. If you understand melee at all, then you’d be pretty foolish to turn that down.
Survival has always been been a speed shooting spec with most iterations including an emphasis on DoTs and exotic traps, not pets. We’re masters of our environment, not blunt instruments. At least know what an SV hunter is before calling anyone else a clown.
I never said anything like that.
I only said that no hunter spec should’ve been turned into a melee-spec. That’s entirely different from what you just said.
If you can’t understand the difference between those arguments, there’s no point in even discussing it…
First off, no it did not provide a completely different playstyle. Everything it provided was situational and had little impact on your regular gameplay loops. The melee-aspect wasn’t even exclusive to SV. It was baseline, class-wide, but again situational.
Second, in regards to it focusing on a different part of the class, that’s because it wasn’t an actual core spec back in TBC. The entire purpose of the three categories we had back then was for each of them to focus on different main features of the core design of the class. About improving those features.
Beast Mastery - all talents here focused on pets or on bestial aspects.
Marksmanship - all talents here improved your ranged weapon attacks/gameplay.
Survival - all talents here focused on improving survivability through better utility and defensives.
And no, it did not provide a completely different playstyle. You still had everything from the core class elements which you were intended to make use of.
Anything from SV only added to that core.
Same with BM or MM talents at the time.
You just did in the part above this one…
Uhm, to reply to what you said when you accused SV of becoming “MM but with DoTs”…
You brought it up. You began this argument. Keep up with it…
No, they introduced core specs as a way to counter the issues with the ever-expanding talent categories we had and how they had already become too large.
Imagine if they had kept that category-style with multiple talent ranks for each. We would have 110 talent points at this stage to fill in every time we respecced etc.
(And yes, they have now also done a level squish)
This wasn’t about players whining about damage charts. They(devs) wanted to fix fundamental problems with talent-design as a whole.
That’s because it’s designed to depend on e.g. systems. Systems such as what we saw in BfA. Yes, secondary stats very much affect the gameplay loop. But they still aren’t the core of the issue.
This is subjective.
Some play for gear, others don’t.
That’s not a problem with Camo. That’s a tuning issue with MM. Or more specifically, a result of the stage were in during the pre-patch.
Assuming it is as bad as you say…
No, I didn’t.
I was referencing Rexxar and what you said about how he was represented through BM.
My answer was that only the Beast Master side of it is. The melee-side isn’t part of BM as seen with the Hunter class in WoW.
Oh, really?
When did they say that?
Should have said no current hunter spec should be melee, there should be a 4th spec. That would add clarity. Proper communication is integral to making a point.
I do understand, you didn’t read it properly and messed up.
To say that these 3 specs played the same is monumentally naïve. Either you didn’t play them or forgot. A person who goes deep into those specs will have totally different powers and tactics for how they fight. That’s not even counting the hybrid options. Go look up TBC talent charts and read them over. If you still think they play the same then you have no imagination, or never experienced them.
No, I made a factual statement and you started arguing for the sake of arguing. I’m not sure what motivates you and Beppels to bicker about petty, off topic nonsense and can’t even get that right.
They overdid it. They can condense the trees without completely eliminating them or the fun progress they added to leveling.
Again you can’t keep track of topics. When I talked about dumbing down, I was referring to the elimination of hybrids in general, not talent trees. Though they did dumb those down too.
Again, you’re overanalyzing words and arguing for the sake of arguing. Just because secondary stats aren’t as big of a problem as the e.g.systems doesn’t mean they aren’t a major problem.
Etc…
Objective. I’m referring to questing, which gear zombies can skip if they don’t care about the story.
Addictionally: The core of PvP should absolutely NOT be gear in any organized PvP such as arena and BGs. If we’re competing for gear, then it should a fair contest between two teams to see who’s smarter and more skilled, not who’s sitting their basement the longest. Gear is for PvE and perhaps world PvP dominance, not organized PvP.
In the patch notes and the Q&A I believe. Anyway, enough of this pettiness. Either present ideas or leave.
Reading over this and many other post makes it clear why SUV got nothing because every time someone tries to give real feedback on the spec that is in the game now it gets taken over by people that cannot let go of the fact that it is not ranged any more and just spam the post with “make it ranged again” or “make a 4th spec” then everyone starts to argue about their take on what suv should be and nothing get done.
If I was a dev I would want to read that ether so instead of working together as hunters to make change we might all enjoy we have a half dead spec that will just be left behind like feral gg
I got a few points myself.
None of the hunter specs should have turned melee
One of the specs should’ve been melee from the start
It should’ve been melee to mimic Rexxar
When current sv was added it should’ve been 4th spec
It is time to move on. You are grown adults and been crying about “muh survival” for over 4 years now… Like seriously… People grieve less for deaths of close relatives…
Oh and…
420 posts blaze it 
Yeah good point, they shouldn’t have made it melee then if they wanted to avoid all this so I’ll just keep on posting that.
Tune numbers, for a start. Damage is low because abilities don’t do enough damage. Talents need rearranging. Survival is forced into being aoe focused or single target focused but don’t really compare in either damage or utility to better-designed specs. The fantasy is solid, but like;
Kill command needs to be replaced with Flanking Strike (Adjusted) as a baseline focused generator. Have it gain less focus but have a lower cooldown (6 seconds).
Mongoose bite needs to be an upgrade applied to raptor strike around level 30. Removed as a talent. Oh, and talents, here’s a wishlist.
A talent that drops a tar trap at your feet when you disengage. Hitting a target affected by the trap with a wildfire bomb deals bonus damage and ignites them for a dot.
Make Butchery turn Carve into a frontal cleave with a cast bar, giving on demand burst cleave in the same way bladestorm might give a warrior. Our AoE needs more interactiveness, too, spells should sync or complement one another when they are used correctly.
Wildfire infusion needs quality of life work. Specifically, I think Volatile bomb should leave a puddle under targets effected by serpent sting, dealing extra damage in a small AoE around them. This would give the player incentive to multi dot, or use Hydra’s bite to ease the workload.
More. Dps. Cooldowns. We have Coordianted Assault. Not attack cooldowns, not chakrams or murder or crows, something that gives us bonus damage or helps focus what type of damage we want to do. A cooldown to immediately refresh Wildfire bomb and make it drop a secondary trap under the target would be great. Speaking of…
Traps could use work. Using tar trap to make wildfire bombs do additional damage is great, more interactivity would only add to the spec. The PROBLEM is creating work without adding benefit. Needing to work harder for more damage is fun. Playing a spec “correctly” and getting better at doing things leads to players feeling accomplished for their time spent. Talents that reduce the “skill” tax are fine, as long as there are also talents that add complexity in exchange for benefits, either dps or utility.
My two cents.
“No hunter spec should’ve been turned into a melee-spec”
What’s not clear about that?
Also, I’ve talked about the idea of adding a 4th spec to this class and how it should’ve been the solution from the start, talked about this many times before in this topic alone.
It’s your topic. Did you miss it?
Sure. Whatever you say mate…
The fact that you think that what the base class provided back then + whatever we got from talents(no matter what categories we went into), that you think this made us more diverse in terms of our core playstyles than what we got as more expansions were added is…it says a lot really.
The fact that you think SV became “MM but with DoTs” but think that the choices we made with talents back in TBC or before…
Funny, I was just about to tell you that…
This is what you said:
I responded the way I did because you were still making clear references towards SV when it was simply a talent category which contained talents almost entirely designed to be used situationally for utility or defensives.
You keep harping on about how players are to blame for what the devs did when they turned it into an actual Core Spec with a dedicated and unique playstyle on a fundamental level.
How are players at fault for what the devs did when they introduced Core specs as a way to counter potential and future problems with the very base elements we saw with early talent design?
I get it, you want a spec with a fundamental playstyle dedicated to utility and cc. The problem with this is that such a design does not fit the game as a whole(as we see it today).
This, again, is why I responded like I did.
It’s not off-topic in any way. It’s a direct response to what you said.
In some ways, sure. What they did, going into Cata wasn’t the only way/the only solution to the problems we were starting to see with that design.
Go back up and read for yourself…
Nothing of what you said hints at how you were just talking about general conceptual changes. You specifically talked about SV and how they took away the focus it had on CC and utility.
I know, and I specifically mentioned that as well. Multiple times actually…
Now who’s not being clear about which part they are referring to?
You only mentioned gear and players focus on obtaining it as a general. You did not say that you were only talking questing.
Either way, how is this particularly relevant to the issue of e.g. stat scaling? Or why did you include this(below) bit with what you just said? What does that have to do with questing and story progression?
Which ones?
Oh hey, this stupid and easily disproven argument which I’ve literally debunked on numerous occasions. It is super easy to find threads about current survival that have no mention of RSV in them. But, as it turns out, when left to their own devices, the MSV crowd will only discuss MSV for about 5 minutes and then stop posting in their own threads.
The only reason threads like these stay at the top of the pile is because the argument.
They should have gone with a 4th spec or made BM the melee spec. One, it’s just more logical for the idea, and two, Melee Survival has been a mess since day one.
In Legion they came out with some of the best trap talents ever, then changed the spec into a disjoined melee mess that couldn’t even use them properly. Think about it, if you’re gonna melee, then do it with two huge exotic BEASTS! That’s way more fun. BM gets exotic pets, we get exotic traps and poisons, which are best used by a mobile dot spec that shoots on the go.
I don’t mind some melee for Survival because it played a role in classic Survival, but it still has to be a rapid fire ranged spec to work properly.
The fact that so many people keep complaining about it is a good indication that most hunters don’t like it. This is the same deal with High Elves - Blizzard didn’t get the hint about them, then released a lazy rushed copy that no one asked for. This shows a lack connection with the audience and that’s a recipe for poor service.
As for sucking it up, I think you’re forgetting that we’re the paying customers here. I’m all for artistic expression in a game, but not to the point where a spec is demolished and no one plays it anymore. Make a 4th spec for this melee nonsense, bring Survival back to its roots.
I like these ones especially because they contribute to range and AoE firepower. Right now the current talent setup is broken on SV. They have 3 different AoE options on ONE bar, and just like Mongoose there’s only one clear choice. It’s stupid.
They also messed up the first bar by making by putting two codependent talents on the same bar (Viper Venom & and Alpha Predator) If anything, Viper’s Venom should be triggered by Kill Command, and these talents should be on the same bar.
Anyway, thanks for adding ideas and being constructive. 
Agreed, but this is also a good show of extreme levels of childlike behaviour…
And as a paying customer you have the right of NOT paying. These are not taxes that you MUST pay.
Right, and as someone who is not a dev or a member of the company, you don’t get to determine what people are allowed to complain about or for how long.
Hit a sore spot didn’t I?
The only childish behavior I’ve seen in here is by people like Bepples and Ghorak who are bickering about petty nonsense instead of staying on topic. We’re looking for solutions, not petty complaints about people making legit criticism.
Well obviously, and that’s what will happen in time if they keep producing bad work. By that I mean the pile of problems SV hunter has that aren’t being address. In fact, they put absolutely NO work at ALL into SV hunter this expansion, so yes complaints are justified.
All I’m asking is that we address the problems with the spec and formulate solutions. As paying customers that is our right, so I don’t see why you’re polishing Blizzard’s apple by saying “If you don’t like it, leave!” That’s childish.
I could write a mile long list of all the problems with this spec and its mixed up talent setup, but that would be stating the obvious. What we need here are solutions.
Not really no. Just pointing out basic facts.
My problem with Melee Survival (other than it literally being spawned from a blood sacrifice) is the lack of a proper, overall theme for the spec. It seems designed entirely the wrong way around.
Look at any other melee spec in the game and you can see what their theme is. Outlaw Rogue? You got a pirate/highwayman thing going. Havoc Demon Hunter? Ok, Someone at Blizzard really likes Devil May Cry/Platinum Games. Windwalker Monks? Easy. Like every martial arts movie ever. So on and so on.
Then you get to the current Survival Hunter which is…What exactly? Ok you are a guy with a spear. You hit things with said spear in a surprising mundane fashion then you yell at your pet to do stuff so you can hit with your spear more. And that’s pretty much it. Yeah you have a dinky little crossbow for applying a DOT and a bomb with the game’s most pointlessly convoluted AoE hitbox that really needs talents to even do much but again, where is the theme? Where is the inspiration?
You say “Survival Hunter” and you think of some grizzled ambush combatant. You might think of John Rambo or the Predator. You think improvised weapons, log traps, hit and run manoeuvres and misdirection. None of which is reflected in any way in the current spec. For hell’s sake, you only get a poor man’s version of stealth via a talent of all things.
I think the reason why Survival is the lowest played spec in the game isn’t even really to do with numbers or mechanics. It just has zero appeal because it was designed as “melee hunter or bust” rather than taking a cool, appealing theme and building it up. The devs need to go back to the very top level view of the class design and give the spec some identity. Give them proper ambush tools, give them those improvised traps, give them savage and brutal combos in melee, hell, let them pull out an iron autocannnon every so often and blaze away with that screaming. Whatever it takes to give the spec actual imagery and not be a bootleg knock off of Arms Warrior that needs to yell at an animal every so often to be able to do anything.
I don’t have any well thought out plans on the implementation of it, BUT I think it’d be really cool to introduce pistols to the game and make survival a pistolier spec that is short to mid range utilizing traps and explosives. And yes, Black Arrow & DoTs!