SURVIVAL: Enough Complaining, Let's Talks Solutions

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Barash-guldan

Constructive Suggestion: Give survival a unique buff

Though I understand that haters gonna hate, ranged hunters are already playing a spec that doesnt satisfy the hunter itch for a lot of them. To give msv a unique utility would add insult to injury. You could just as easily make it so that only the tank specs bring the melee raid utilities and dps can go back to a bring the player not the class philosophy.

[Deadred-alexstrasza]

I definitely didn’t read the entire thread, so sorry if I’m restating, but as someone who really loved survival during Legion, I think what best set it apart and defined it at the time was bursty melee with all the coverage of a ranged spec.

Building up to high mongoose fury stacks on a boss, harpooning to an add 40 yards away, killing it, which reset harpoon’s cooldown, and then harpooning to another add, all within a single bite window made for some real fun gameplay.
Losing the heavy burst, turning mongoose bite into a build and spend affair, and then nerfing harpoon range/not implementing a replacement for the cooldown reset from the artifact really killed it for me.

I feel like bringing back that burst and improving mobility would go a long way.

[Donrio-winterhoof]

Yeah I have always wondered why blizz walked away from the whole mongoose bite, Fury of the Eagle game play heck Fury of the Eagle is no longer in the game. I can understand them walking away from the whole “Trap Master” aspect of Legion (though I may not agree with it).

[Xaedys-thrall (Xaedys)]

@Deadred-alexstrasza

then nerfing harpoon range/not implementing a replacement for the cooldown reset from the artifact really killed it for me.

???

Terms of Engagement

[Ragnoiros-sargeras]

wish you could replace it with Flanking Strike to have a player + pet gap closer, would be way cooler (thematically) than having a single maritime flavored ability in a rangeresque spec

[Lyandi-area-52]

Survival is not just any spec for me, it is MY spec, Ive played basically all classes and specs and this is the one that gives me the most enjoyment out of the game, I love the whole idea of a hybrid melee/ranged spec, I love the roleplay of not just using my pet as a damage sponge but actually going there in the battlefield with them because my pet is my partner, fighting side by side, I love the mobility this class brings, hiding in the bushes to wait and grapple to them unexpectedly, waiting for the right time like a good hunter does.

Said that, I dont like constantly underperforming in raids and PVE, even in PVP its just sorta okay, I dont want to have to reroll because like I said this class gives me the most enjoyment out of any class, so please Blizzard, do something to fix it, you dont need a crazy revamp BFA Survival was actually fun, just needed a few tweaks for generating focus maybe not all my focus coming from my pet, thanks for listening. nwn

[Heldrõck-galakrond]

Many of our talents are dead. Trailblazer vs natural mending and camo is a no brainer most of the time, terms of engagement is litterally useless, if it reduced the CD of harpoon by 5 seconds and regenerated more focus it might be worth it. Maybe find a way to put black arrow back on the talent tree, maybe you could make mongoose bite baseline and put black arrow in its place on the talent tree.
Chakrams do very little damage, in order for it to be useful it would need to do a lot more damage.

i really like the idea of brining back the ranged weapon back for survival, brining back explosive shot would be amazing, im not a fan of it being on a 30 second cooldown tho.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Heldrõck-galakrond

Trailblazer vs natural mending and camo is a no brainer most of the time

My gripe here is that there is nothing resembling parity between them. Camouflage has essentially no use in PvE, while Trailblazer offers very little in current tier competitive content. At least SV wants to run faster when not attacking (to close gaps), but you have Harpoon and reverse Disengage to close gaps already, and Wing Clip/Tar Trap to keep them closed, not to mention the ability to stick a Snare pet on the target and keep them there with Kill Command/Dash.

@Heldrõck-galakrond

Maybe find a way to put black arrow back on the talent tree

Black Arrow is (essentially) back as the Venthyr Covenant ability, it isn’t coming back as a talent in 9.x.

[Crewelle-stormrage]

I wish Survival would be good. The problem is the only way it really becomes useful is if raids require a lot of switching between heavy melee and heavy ranged. With that the player can then offer a character than can switch between what is optimal.

[Heldrock-tichondrius]

Yes I know flayed shot is coming in the form of a covenant ability but it is exactly that it is a covenant ability. The only thing good about flayed shot is the fact that it procs kill shot, it does no damage besides when killshot procs.

[Heldrock-tichondrius]

Part of the point that I made about bringing back Black Arrow is the fact that right now there is no negative consequence for dispelling our dots. When Black Arrow existed if you dispelled it the cooldown was reset and the focus you spent on it was refunded.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

It’s a DoT, and each tick of the DoT has a chance to proc Kill Shot. This is exactly how Black Arrow worked.

I don’t think Flayed Shot can be dispelled normally, it is a bleed effect. Kyrian Steward phials can cleanse it, as can Dwarf/DID racials, and probably Paladin’s BoP, but other than that it shouldn’t be getting cleansed.

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Heldrõck-galakrond

Many of our talents are dead.

Moreso than any other spec of any other class in the game, I choose SV talents situationally. Most rows have more than one good option depending on your gear, and the content you are doing and with whom you are doing it.

@Heldrõck-galakrond

Chakrams do very little damage, in order for it to be useful it would need to do a lot more damage.

Chakrams aren’t underperforming from a damage standpoint. They do good enough damage and they are beautiful. They are just less interesting than the other two talents on that row in how those talents interact with the rest of the kit. It has been suggested that it be moved to the steel trap/murder of crows row. I do think it fits better there giving you the choice between a damaging root, a dot and an aoe.

And of course, you don’t have to take my word for it. I’m not a high end raider nor am I a gladiator pvper. I’m just a guy who loves hunter and a spectator of high end players. But the best conversation I’ve heard on SV in the past 6 years is Sloots SV discussion for Shadowlands, where Avakuro, Varkyrion and Doolb give their insight on where the spec was, where it is and where its going in SL.

[Xidane-archimonde]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Please stop saying that RSV was “a DoT-version of MM”. RSV was RSV and it’s design and intended gameplay did not promote the idea of “MM but with DoTs”.

Sure, it did not have the same burst potential as MM. But again…that was not the intent.

Yes it was, depending on which expansion we’re talking about. By the time MoP rolled around both MM and SV were pure range specs except they delivered damage differently. MM was similar to how it is now, a bursty support damage, while SV was mobile rapid damage and traps.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Again, it entirely depends on what you want from a game/experience.

Going for either extreme is/can be a bad thing however you decide to do it.

I think they need to focus on making the game more tactical and the classes having more teamwork instead of this brainless stat system that’s over emphasizing gear and mindless spamming.

They also need voiced quests and conversation options that setup your personality. The game’s story needs to be more cohesive to the leveling experience.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Current SV? Depends on who you ask really.

I’m moderately enjoying it but I want the pet gone and more ranged attacks back. We need DoTs to be the fuel source, not that clunky pet who gets lost or killed. The pet is an interruption to our attack sequences and a nuisance.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Again, personal preferences are what they are. But with this, it sounds as if utility is more of the problem, as opposed to damaging abilities.

It’s also based on fact though. Even as far back as WCIII Beastmaster was Rexxar. MM is the ranged specialist, BM is the melee specialist, and SV is the flexible jack of all trades with exotic traps. That’s the whole point of the spec.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Camouflage used to work like this.

When you moved, you could be targeted/players could see you. They could not attack you from afar though. And when you stood still, you gained Stealth.

Yep, I remember those days, they should bring that back. I feel stealth is the domain of Rogues. I suggest changing it back to what it was and then reducing the cooldown.

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

KC is too much of our damage, but without exotic pets, two pets, or otherwise general pet focus, its just a pet spec, not a beast madtery spec. The themes are not at all beast mastery. There is no beast centric build. ITS ALL about bombs, poison and mongoose.

But yeah… downgrade KC a little bit. If you have a pet, “sic em” is going to be an important trick, but it would be nice to look back at the data and see something else taking that importance.

There is though, we have multiple pet talents and our entire energy system revolves around the pet. We’re basically BM with bombs. It’s lazy. What we should have is BM with the crazy melee attacks and two huge beasts. BM can have the mongoose bite baseline and the KC resource system. And a talent for an axe throwing attack.

SV needs to go back to its roots. Traps, bombs, poisons, heals, and a jack of all trades mindset. Masters of using their environment. We’re basically Aragorn, Rambo, and Dutch. Get some Dunedain up in here.

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Xidane-archimonde

I’m not wasting any more time on that first bit because it’s petty as hell.

You’re the one who started barking out “stay on topic” like some sort of “gotcha” line in reponse to points that were entirely on topic.

@Xidane-archimonde

I think you’re still forgetting it was a joke and I say you’re off topic when you’re off topic. You’re fiddling around talking about sub counts like anyone cares and don’t seem to have any grasp of humor or context.

And manipulative? What the hell are you on about?

You’re not just saying “it was a joke”, though. You try to pass it off as a joke before going at length to defend it. It’s one of the oldest manipulative tricks in the book.

@Xidane-archimonde

You’re applying your own limitations and objectives to other players. As stated, I don’t care about raids or in-game achievements. I get gear, I collect transmogs, I read lore, and I’d smoke you in an even geared duel - That’s all I care about when I play.

And topping meters? Seriously? A monkey can do that. Your dps charts don’t mean squat in a real battle, and you clearly lack any sense of nuance or tactical awareness.

Like I said, far better Hunters than you could ever hope to be were playing that way. You clearly have an image of yourself as a good player. You aren’t. You’ve done absolutely no relevant content to speak of in ANY expansion besides some casual arenas and BGs years ago.

@Xidane-archimonde

Figures you’d actually like the over simplification of talents. Back in TBC we had talent trees and loads of possibilities. These days entire rows only have one useful talent in many cases, on top of dumbed down spam mechanics.

In most situations there simply weren’t a lot of possibilities. Spin doctors like you love to sell this fantasy of ultimate customisation but the fact of the matter is most of the talents you picked

@Xidane-archimonde

Actually the current balance of CC vs Gap Closing/Breaking mechanics is a complete DISASTER. The damage output to cc ratio on some classes, ie: monks, is completely broken, while others have too much self healing for their level of damage.

Here’s a reminder that you decried CC DRs in this very thread, apparently under the impression that the permanent fears/polymorphs of WoW’s early days were a great thing for the game. I’m not going to pretend the current WoW PvP balance is any good, but you certainly shouldn’t pretend BC was either.

@Xidane-archimonde

When I called current SV illogical I wasn’t referring to the resource… I called it illogical because it’s a melee hunter who specializes in kiting mechanics meant for a ranged class… Again, pay attention.

Yes, that is indeed nonsense, which begs the question: why are you suggesting yet another melee Hunter? You keep insisting it’s not that, but it is. It’s a Hunter that has to go to melee at least some of the time to do its full damage potential. You might like to pretend that isn’t a melee hunter but it absolutely is.

@Xidane-archimonde

It’s got nothing to do you, I’m posting an idea because current SV Hunter sucks and the sheer volume of complaints on the hunter forum speaks for themselves.

You literally repeated exactly what I described in the part you quoted here. Since it’s been a while, here it is again: you try to pretend you’re on our side by trashing melee Survival while marketing your own version of melee Survival.

@Xidane-archimonde

Realistically and thematically, BM should be the melee spec, MM should be the ranged spec, and SV should be the middle ground with a specialization in traps. It’s a tactical spec, it’s not meant to be a button mashing chart killer, which is all you seem to understand.

Realistically and thematically none of the Hunter specs should be required to ever go to melee range to deal their full damage potential because mastery of ranged weapons is the most central element of the class. There should at most be a BM talent that adds a “melee stance” so to speak for the melee roleplayers like you.

@Xidane-archimonde

Why would I be advocating for melee hunter when we already have melee hunter? Do you even think before posting? My whole thread has been about SV hunter being ranged again. That being said, I don’t want to go back to pure range because that’s something we call Marksman Hunter.

The “that being said” is doing all the work here. Not pure ranged = melee as far as I’m concerned. I can assure you that 90%+ of the people asking for ranged Survival are not asking for some Frankenstein’s monster of melee and ranged, so kindly stop pretending you’re simply asking for SV to be ranged again. You’re not nearly as good at spin doctoring as you think you are.

@Xidane-archimonde

And you know this how? Most arena junkies coast off an early start and bully their way up the rankings. It’s not a worthy contest of skill. If arena negated gear, allowed professions, and had an audience, then I’d play it. Gear makes sense for PvE progression and world PvP, but arena should be about who’s the better team.

As for welfare epics, I’ve hardly played the last two expansions and I think you need to reevaluate your priorities in life. Start by getting one.

Laughable. You genuinely think your Stormwind gates duels constitue more skill than the best of the best going up against each other in arenas. You also think gear discrepancy is unfair but they should allow for profession gimmicks. You really are living in your own little universe.

@Xidane-archimonde

Says the one using cast sequence macros instead of having the memorization and co-ordination to do it himself…

What part of “this was the optimal way to play” don’t you understand? You know what the rotation was for PvE in BC? It was weaving Steady Shots and Auto Shots. It’s not like it took any skill to begin with.

Besides, I actually never did this because I didn’t like it and I didn’t play in a competitive raid environment at the time, so I went around as MM using all the extra abilities we weren’t meant to use due to Blizzard’s god awful Hunter class design of the time.

You’re once again trying to paint players far better than you as unskilled and lazy so let’s make this perfectly clear:

You are not a good player. You have done no competitive content to speak of. You just have a massively inflated ego based on your casual battlegrounds and duels.

@Xidane-archimonde

As for getting trashed, no one has done this. Anyone with a useful comment got a good reception, regardless of whether or not they agreed with me, while grumpy trolls like you got schooled.

This might have felt good for you to type, but unfortunately you’ve yet again dodged the point of the matter which is that you made the ridiculous claim that BC is what put WoW on the map and when you get called out on it you just screech that we’re going off topic.

@Xidane-archimonde

See this is what happens when you rely on zombie macros or think that arena is actual PvP… You lose all creativity. I played a Blood Elf hunter so I had

• Arcane Torrent
• Grenades
• Scattershot depending on my spec
• Drums of Panic (Still use’em on some characters)
• Feign Death.
• Trinket is a last resort
• This doesn’t even include my Alchemy magic defenses and heals.

Starting to see the picture yet? Typically I Wyvern Sting before they get too friendly, then kite, then refresh cooldowns and Wyvern again for more kiting. Depending on the situation I’d also use a Snake Trap on them, which is the anti-caster trap when paired up with my pet. In short, use your brain and you won’t get deadzoned as much.

You act like no one else but you did these things. You also act like other classes didn’t have counters for them. Hunters weren’t the PvP gods you think they were and the deadzone was still a major weakness of the class regardless of how much you think you could mitigate it. Funnily enough, BC was the expansion to remove the deadzone for good (patch 2.3) so evidently it was a bad enough thing for the class to remove it before the end of that expansion.

@Xidane-archimonde

Clearly you’ve never been in a Hellfire Peninsula war before. Killing some lowbies always attracts their mains and starts the real fight.

No, I stick to Mechagon and Nazjatar where actual geared max level players show up because I don’t derive a sense of self worth from killing people whom I vastly outlevel.

Let’s remind ourselves that you simultaneously believe rated PvP is a no-skill environment. The sheer gall…

@Xidane-archimonde

What does this have to do with a melee SV hunter? Think.

You keep demanding melee mechanics, hence melee Survival. Simple as that.

@Xidane-archimonde

For the ranged component, absolutely. MoP had the best ranged combat and maintained the value of traps with a very nice explosive immolation fusion. I indicated this from the start and in multiple posts here, but you lost track.

TBC was incomplete in that regard, but its melee aspect was very important for getting people off you, and that’s what MoP lacked and why it’s logical. I want the two fused, as I said from the start, and I want Legion’s Trap Specialization talent restored.

Hunters were far more competent in PvP in MoP v.s. BC, so you’re talking out your rear here. The minimum range was nothing but a weakness of the class, no matter how you spin doctor it. Yes, I’m aware you’re in favour of the MoP version “for the ranged component”. But “ranged component” is the whole crux of our disagreement. You believe there should be mandatory melee mechanics involved while I don’t. That’s not a small disagreement. Because I’m asking for ranged Survival; you’re asking for some dreadful compromise of ranged and melee Survival.

@Xidane-archimonde

Hopefully we’ll get a WoW 2 one day with a more modern system.

he says, while demanding an older, worse version of WoW Hunters.

@Xidane-archimonde

I’m expanding on that idea because I don’t feel a DoT version of MM was the answer, especially given the inferior firepower. I’ll elaborate on the importance of melee in sec.

And here he goes again with the stock standard pro melee Survival arguments… but not asking for melee Survival, no sir!

Your idea of Survival is worse than the MoP/WoD versions, simple as that. You aren’t expanding it; you’re ruining it.

@Xidane-archimonde

Actually that’s the biggest bone I have to pick with the current system: It’s just dumb. Class value being based on damage or healing charts is the height of stupidity, and a big part of what ruined this game. Paladins suffered a similar dumbing down. That being said, Classic and TBC traps were a game changer in BGs and Arenas, and still could be.

Thinking that either damage/healing didn’t matter in BC or that utility doesn’t matter now is maximum delusion. You’re speaking from a position of naive nostalgia combined with inexperience in any competitive content whatsoever.

@Xidane-archimonde

There are always times when you get stuck in melee combat, and personally I don’t enjoy helplessly spamming any available shot while I’m getting wrecked. Back in the in day I’d just pull out two swords and give them a run for their money. Does that sound like a Legolas moment, yes, but it was fun as hell.

The ranged attacks in 0-5 yards now are far more powerful than the melee toolkit we had in BC times, lmao. You are so adamant at portraying the melee toolkit as a strength but it just doesn’t work.

@Xidane-archimonde

Yes it was, depending on which expansion we’re talking about. By the time MoP rolled around both MM and SV were pure range specs except they delivered damage differently. MM was similar to how it is now, a bursty support damage, while SV was mobile rapid damage and traps.

LOL. So now you’re really falling for the revisionist lie of “MM and SV got more similar over time”? I guess I shouldn’t have expected any better from you.

For the record, MM and SV strictly diverged over time. In Vanilla and BC they had mostly the same toolkit with mainly passive differences. By WoD they had almost entirely different toolkits and shared very little outside of the baseline Hunter utilities. Thinking that they converged over time is delusional.

@Xidane-archimonde

I think they need to focus on making the game more tactical and the classes having more teamwork instead of this brainless stat system that’s over emphasizing gear and mindless spamming.

The only thing that’s brainless here is the notion that there is no teamwork or coordination of utility right now. Once again, you’re speaking from a position of total inexperience on the matter.

@Xidane-archimonde

They also need voiced quests and conversation options that setup your personality. The game’s story needs to be more cohesive to the leveling experience.

Yes this is a high priority as we know this is all you’ll ever do in this game. After all, competitive PvP is too hard – oh, sorry, too “mindless”, right.

[anon50541245]

Came here to beg for dual wielding survival back. I know we don’t want to hog more loot tables, but with personal loot being a thing, why the hell not?

[Kalgorn-emerald-dream]

Love survival just the way it is now

[Rushum-bloodsail-buccaneers]

I kind of like how it plays right now. I just think it could use a bit more flexibility, but nothing extreme, like turning it back into a ranged spec.

The addition of dual wielding would be amazing for a variety of reasons. Most importantly, it’s just more fun for some players. It could also add a variety of playstyles, something like 2H being the previous build up focus and unload mongoose bite spam, and dual wielding could be more sustained, something like that. Maybe hard to balance though, I don’t really know.

[Rynerxlute-stormrage]

I would be fine with survival as it is if only blizz would balance talents a bit better so I didn’t have to use mongoose bite. I’m sure some people like the talent alot but not me lol. I really enjoy the little crossbow that let’s me shoot with serpent sting. I like throwing bombs at enemies. I like being able to use a CD to let me go ranged for a bit. It’s a cool spec just needs some tweaks is all.

A personal preference of mine would maybe be a trap or 2 that actually does damage.

[Nippysmilk-barthilas (Nippysmilk)]

That was a long post

Also shut up I like survival being melee and you can bolden and make your words bigger but it doesn’t mean anything

Back to the matter at hand

Baseline mongoose bite and some talent fixes and some kind of passive to help with focus regen and not make up completely dependent on kill command procs

We can discuss what to do with the spec at a later date but for now we need a few fixes for what we have in shadow lands