Aye if I remerber correctly I believe blizz said large class updates where probably not going to happen or at least not happen on the scale of “every spec” will be reworked. I like the core game play of SV, I don’t think it needs a major rework outside of mongoose bite baseline, I just wish it got some “ironing out” talent wise.
Going forward post SL I am curious of how much blizz wants to embrace the melee/ranged hybrid with SV (assuming blizz doesn’t want to make SV ranged again). As it is SV hunters only have 2 melee attacks not counting auto attacking and outside of aspect of the eagle you will have to be in melee to do any real damage. It could be argued that if SV could use arcane shot and steady shot with their minixbow then maybe I could somewhat see the whole hybrid game play but as of now, at least damage wise SV has to do it in melee range.
Debatable but who cares. Why are you still going on about that? Stay on topic.
You seem to be taking more of an interest in tangents over anything relevant. I jokingly said I’d even take back the deadzone if I could have TBC hunter back; why are you taking this literally? Yes I thought it was a fun mechanic for the time and simulated real life combat, but I’m not advocating for it. Again, stay on topic.
I think you need to get yourself a girl, mate. You sound grouchy. Those macros are for lazy zombies and unnecessary for an adaptable player. I stopped raiding seriously after classic and pawned off my account for good reason. Raids are too time consuming, too boring, and clearly product angst. LFR…how about ZFG, zero Fs given. Everything you just described is sleep inducing.
Yes PvP actually requires intelligence and reflexes, which is why I like it. As for the current mechanics, we lost lot more than we gained. The current style is cluttered and illogical, yet also somehow dumbed down. Amazing accomplishment in itself.
If TBC Survival had updates like disengage, ranged traps, and a few spells being modernized, it’d be amazing. Oh and BM hunters didn’t scare me with those pets because as soon as the beast turned red I’d just use Deterrence twice in a row, then freeze it and go after the hunter in melee combat. Back then traps worked properly, so his pet would be locked down long enough to beat him up.
Of course you need gear to dish out the damage, but the point is the functionality of the class wasn’t torched by not being maxed out. I didn’t have ridiculous global cooldowns interrupting my weapon switching, or having to grind my resources up with a sluggish pat attack. The current style is slow and completely illogical. Traps are for kiting, why would they turn the trap specialist into a melee spec??
It had its flaws, but not as broken as this mess of cc breakers and gap closers. Stupid Heart of Azeroth broke my cc half the time on various classes.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’ll do, along with world PvP. It’s not as glamorous as your nerd elitist accolades, but it’s fun and takes more brains than anything you described. Arena is tedious and limiting. I’d only bother with it if my brother came back to the game. Until then, I’m just having fun.
You sound like my senile grandfather. Grumpy, petty, and off topic.
Oops, so I mixed up an expansion. I had many tactics throughout the various expansions; fear toys, stun grenades, and even the Tidal Charm in Classic. And yes, feign death. If you knew anything about fighting, you’d know that it cuts off enemy spells while they’re casting and sends minions or pets away. And you needed it to plant traps back then. Back then there were no abilities that could maintain the deadzone for long, especially when the hunter was prepared.
As for how I speak, everything I said was true at some point or another, so if someone counters it, I counter back. Giving the angsty tone you come off with, you’d think you’d have a thicker skin.
Well I was a TBC big shot when server reputation was a thing. I cared a lot more about that than arena, which was a massive disappointment. No professions, no secret items, no creativity, no live audience, no balancing out gear for a fair fight. It was a joke to me. Hellfire was my playground and my brother and I did quite well terrorizing the Horde.
As I said, gear grinding is tedious and repetitive, and I don’t enjoy running the same raid, or arena too many times. I get enough gear to beat people up and then I adventure around.
I never said anything like that. You’re describing Survival’s current model, which I have completely denounced as garbage. I don’t want melee Survival because it’s an illogical contradiction by design. I want a modern version Survival that’s loyal to its original concept:
DoT based ranged combat
Competent melee for limited spaces in the fight.
Exotic traps for teamwork cc, AoE damage, and defense.
We had enough keys to manage all that back then, and updating the old Raptor Strike with the current mongoose mentality works for a solid melee component. It’s a hybrid spec. I even came up with the idea of making two handers the weapon of choice for more melee oriented hunters, while dual wielding works for ranged. So what’s the problem?
Stay on topic? You’re the one bringing it up. What a typically pathetic response.
No, it is not debatable. Most of WoW’s fame came from the original release, period.
What I said was absolutely relevant. The deadzone/minimum range was a terrible mechanic and the day it was gone was a good day for the class. “Simulating real life combat” is a bad excuse because often it detracts from the gameplay and the minimum range absolutely did.
Is this your new tactic? Just pretend everything I say is off topic when it’s directly responding to your spin-doctoring crap? Here’s a helpful tip: you are really bad at being manipulative, so you might as well quit while you’re behind.
What part of “castsequence macros were the optimal way to play” don’t you understand? Go look at any TBC Hunter PvE guide. They ALL have the same cookie-cutter BM spec that weaved Steady Shot and Auto-Shot using a macro because that was the optimal way to play, proven by simulations and in game tests. Far better Hunters than you could ever hope to be were playing that way and topping meters.
There’s SK Gaming’s Hunter using the castsequence macro. Literally just spamming “2” for the entirety of one of the hardest bosses in all BC PvE. The only variation is the occasional Multi-Shot when the adds are grouped.
You seem to take a disproportionate amount of pride in yourself for having done next to absolutely nothing in this game. Apparently all content is “sleep inducing” to you since you do none of it. Go read up on the “Dunning Kreuger” effect and try to gain some self-awareness.
We really didn’t. The only significant reduction in complexity is the loss of the minimum range and now we have different new gameplay elements that never existed in BC such as knockbacks and focus management. Modern PvP also does a much better job at giving each utility a place rather than a huge unorganised mess of overly-situational garbage (lol Scorpid Sting). The modern Hunter is truly the less cluttered and more logical iteration. You’re just projecting the BC failures onto modern WoW here in another poor attempt of manipulative deflection.
More useless projection.
How is using Mana for things like Raptor Strike logical? The BC Hunter was full of dated nonsense design.
Tell me about it. Furthermore, why would you have clueless people on the forums suggesting such nonsense as a melee-ranged hybrid?
You’re again trying and failing to be manipulative. You’re trying to get people like me on your side by trashing melee Survival yet what you’re suggesting is basically just a retooled melee Survival. Should Survival be a ranged spec again it must be able to use its ranged weapon 0-40 yards at all times. This isn’t a point of compromise. There must be no dependence on melee. Stop pretending you aren’t selling melee Survival.
I world PvP a lot too, but I don’t pretend it’s something that takes skill or wit on the level of competitive arena. That’s just you being delusional and trying to paint yourself as a much better player than you actually are. If you went up against any of the 1800+ players in world PvP you would get smoked, even if we put them in gear equivalent to your welfare epics.
You’re also in no place to call other people elitist when you repeatedly portray other players as unskilled and lazy.
You may not like how this subscription argument is going for you, but that doesn’t make it off-topic. You’re the one that introduced it to your own thread, and given it’s a delusional point you shouldn’t be surprised everyone is trashing it. You don’t get to suddenly declare all responses to be “off topic”. Should you have finally abandoned this argument you should admit it was wrong, apologise, then we can move on from it.
The point is Feign Death is not a “deadzone counter”. You could absolutely get rooted in the deadzone back then especially given the wonky DR mechanics of the time (something you actually praised earlier). You FD their cast? Cool; a good player is back to casting on you in under a second. Toys and profession items? They can just as easily have those too. We had less ability to break roots back then, too. Posthaste didn’t exist. Master’s Call didn’t exist. If your PvP trinket was on cooldown and you didn’t have a pocket dispel, you could very well find yourself stuck in a deadzone, at least until 2.3 when they reduced the minimum range to 5 yards.
You ganked low levels in questing zones and think you were a PvP bigshot. Genuinely one of the most delusional and self-obsessed players I’ve ever seen on this forum given what you’ve actually put into this game.
Like I said before, you keep pivoting back to this “we’re on the same side” angle. We are not. You want a melee component for Survival, I don’t. Simple as that. Make no mistake, what you’re suggesting is melee Survival. I almost fell for it, too. When I first read your post, I was about to upvote based on the first sentence. It was only after reading the full post when I realised you’re just trying to apply marketing spin to yet another melee Survival.
Any ranged Survival needs to be based on the MoP/WoD version. High mobility, high utility, dots, fully ranged, no illogical melee.
I’m not wasting any more time on that first bit because it’s petty as hell.
I think you’re still forgetting it was a joke and I say you’re off topic when you’re off topic. You’re fiddling around talking about sub counts like anyone cares and don’t seem to have any grasp of humor or context.
And manipulative? What the hell are you on about?
You’re applying your own limitations and objectives to other players. As stated, I don’t care about raids or in-game achievements. I get gear, I collect transmogs, I read lore, and I’d smoke you in an even geared duel - That’s all I care about when I play.
And topping meters? Seriously? A monkey can do that. Your dps charts don’t mean squat in a real battle, and you clearly lack any sense of nuance or tactical awareness.
Figures you’d actually like the over simplification of talents. Back in TBC we had talent trees and loads of possibilities. These days entire rows only have one useful talent in many cases, on top of dumbed down spam mechanics.
Actually the current balance of CC vs Gap Closing/Breaking mechanics is a complete DISASTER. The damage output to cc ratio on some classes, ie: monks, is completely broken, while others have too much self healing for their level of damage.
Overwatch has a far better grasp on cc, typically making characters with cc have less damage. There are fewer CCs, but each one is highly effective and promotes teamwork. No bs trinket or cc immunities. Frankly I wish WoW played exactly like Overwatch, but can’t have it all.
Again with these assumptions of my motives… Ridiculous argument.
When I called current SV illogical I wasn’t referring to the resource… I called it illogical because it’s a melee hunter who specializes in kiting mechanics meant for a ranged class… Again, pay attention.
Why do you insist on this paranoid language?
It’s got nothing to do you, I’m posting an idea because current SV Hunter sucks and the sheer volume of complaints on the hunter forum speaks for themselves.
It is a point of compromise because this is my idea and I said so. Stop imposing your opinion as if it were your call. You can express your thoughts but leave that dictator mentality at the door.
Realistically and thematically, BM should be the melee spec, MM should be the ranged spec, and SV should be the middle ground with a specialization in traps. It’s a tactical spec, it’s not meant to be a button mashing chart killer, which is all you seem to understand.
Why would I be advocating for melee hunter when we already have melee hunter? Do you even think before posting? My whole thread has been about SV hunter being ranged again. That being said, I don’t want to go back to pure range because that’s something we call Marksman Hunter.
And you know this how? Most arena junkies coast off an early start and bully their way up the rankings. It’s not a worthy contest of skill. If arena negated gear, allowed professions, and had an audience, then I’d play it. Gear makes sense for PvE progression and world PvP, but arena should be about who’s the better team.
As for welfare epics, I’ve hardly played the last two expansions and I think you need to reevaluate your priorities in life. Start by getting one.
Says the one using cast sequence macros instead of having the memorization and co-ordination to do it himself…
Says the guy who’s lost track of what we’re talking about multiple times. Soon you’ll be saying I stole you money and medication.
As for getting trashed, no one has done this. Anyone with a useful comment got a good reception, regardless of whether or not they agreed with me, while grumpy trolls like you got schooled.
See this is what happens when you rely on zombie macros or think that arena is actual PvP… You lose all creativity. I played a Blood Elf hunter so I had
Arcane Torrent
Grenades
Scattershot depending on my spec
Drums of Panic (Still use’em on some characters)
Feign Death.
Trinket is a last resort
This doesn’t even include my Alchemy magic defenses and heals.
Starting to see the picture yet? Typically I Wyvern Sting before they get too friendly, then kite, then refresh cooldowns and Wyvern again for more kiting. Depending on the situation I’d also use a Snake Trap on them, which is the anti-caster trap when paired up with my pet. In short, use your brain and you won’t get deadzoned as much.
Clearly you’ve never been in a Hellfire Peninsula war before. Killing some lowbies always attracts their mains and starts the real fight.
Why do you keep including yourself as if you had any relevance in my thought process on hunter? And I’m the self absorbed one, lol.
Again, do you think before you post? I was right about the senility it seems.
What does this have to do with a melee SV hunter? Think.
For the ranged component, absolutely. MoP had the best ranged combat and maintained the value of traps with a very nice explosive immolation fusion. I indicated this from the start and in multiple posts here, but you lost track.
TBC was incomplete in that regard, but its melee aspect was very important for getting people off you, and that’s what MoP lacked and why it’s logical. I want the two fused, as I said from the start, and I want Legion’s Trap Specialization talent restored.
Agreed. Minimum range was a stupid thing, but I still think we should have both ranged and melee weapons, just have animations that are used depending on at what range to the enemy we are. (simply because it would look cool as heck)
A lot of talents back then provided small damage bonuses to individual spells.
Others gave you some extra dodge/parry. Or some small utility improvements.
In most cases, each talent on it’s own did very little.
As a comparison, if you look at the grand total of all 3 talent categories from vanilla and the base class, you basically had the equivalent of…lets say today’s Marksmanship spec coupled with some options for pets/beasts as well as a little added survivability and utility.
It felt like more because there were no restriction for what could be picked. You could combine talents as you liked. You were only restricted based on how many points you could spend.
Sure, there was more freedom to go your own way. But make no mistake, we have more defined options today for how to focus our playstyle. We have a lot more options today that actually have an impact on our gameplay.
You mean “only one talent that performs the best”. Not exactly a new phenomenon. And that will never go away.
Does that mean that other talents aren’t useful, despite not being the top performers? No, it doesn’t.
Is a different game compared to WoW.
They aren’t even remotely the same type of games.
Yeah, but you’re using complaints from players who are asking for RSV as a basis for your suggestions. Which doesn’t hold up.
People are asking for RSV because they want RSV. Simple as that.
Specs are designed based on a particular base concept and philosophy.
As an example:
The idea of a utility-spec/support-spec does not fit the game as it is.
There’s more than 1 way to be a ranged weapon-fighter.
You can be purely ranged without being a Marksman(as portrayed in WoW).
Those were more of a thing of the past.
In most cases, not something you’d want to do in the game today, based on design.
Not sure what you mean by “competent melee for limited spaces” but, unless there’s a range restriction put on ranged weapons, there’s no point in having melee-abilities as a hunter.
Again, what I said just above this.
Unless ranged weapons once again get restrictions put on them for when we can use them(and abilities relying on ranged weapons), what you’re suggesting will not work.
You say MoP lacked the elements of BC that involved melee? That’s because hunters had no use of melee in MoP. We could perform all damaging ranged attacks and more, even when in melee.
Let’s not turn my post into msv/rsv nonsense. It is staying melee for at least one more xpac and no amount of whining will change that.
And no, I do not believe a 4th spec will happen either unless they add a 4th to every other class at the same time.
I am talking about all hunters in general. bm/mm getting melee animations if they are in melee range and sv getting ranged weapon shots for ranged abilities (bomb, serpent sting, kill command) while ranged abilities also gained melee hit animations while in melee
I did not mention anything about RSV in my reply to you.
It’s not a case of “all or nothing”.
If it was, the reason for why you’d want 1 class to have a 4th spec does not matter.
And in such a case, Druids would not have a 4th spec either. But they do.
I used to think the same thing back then, but when you add up the abilities they actually panned out quite well. Each of those dodge and parry chances added up when you used improved Aspect of the Monkey, 15% increase in agility, and Deterrence + Readiness. That combination proved to be a lifesaver.
Granted, the whole game needs an overhaul and update, so those mechanics could be modified for today’s game.
Personally I’m of the mind that a lot of cc, gap closers, and cc breakers need to be removed from the game, especially with broken classes like Monk who have excessive levels of damage considering their cc and mobility. One thing about classic WoW is the it simplified the right things, while going into detail with talents.
It does if they don’t perform well enough to justify their use. In some cases you can say, well this one works better for AoE situations in dungeons, and that’d be true, but talents like Mongoose are just inescapably more competent than its competition. At least with the old system, you had some mix and match options that could compensate.
This is true, but my point is that I’d rather have WoW play like Overwatch because its combat system is up to date, and more organized for team play, while WoW’s is archaic and disorganized. Dice rolling D&D combat was designed to simulate actual combat through numbers, but games now have live actions systems that are far more exciting and visceral.
Hopefully we’ll get a WoW 2 one day with a more modern system.
I’m expanding on that idea because I don’t feel a DoT version of MM was the answer, especially given the inferior firepower. I’ll elaborate on the importance of melee in sec.
Actually that’s the biggest bone I have to pick with the current system: It’s just dumb. Class value being based on damage or healing charts is the height of stupidity, and a big part of what ruined this game. Paladins suffered a similar dumbing down. That being said, Classic and TBC traps were a game changer in BGs and Arenas, and still could be.
Pillar humping with upgraded frost trap would be solid GOLD, and you can’t go wrong with Wyvern Sting. Snake Trap muddled up casters so effectively. AoE flame traps in MoP; gold. What SV lacked in pure killing power, it made up for in teamwork value.
Yep, especially in Shadowlands, but it’s clunky and unfinished. I’ve even managed to bring my bow back into the equation and alternate, but I have to do it through macros. I’ve had good results but I’d still take MoP and TBC over it.
In Classic and TBC melee actually does do more damage than ranged attacks in short bursts, but since the melee skills had cooldowns, you had to get out fast. I used to merc other hunters with Survival’s superior melee, but the dodge and parry really helped against others.
You’re right about range restriction playing a role in that being there, which is why I added in a DoT builder to give them use in the overall equation. As I described in my premise, DoTs are what give focus, so this proves even more useful for when you get back to ranged. So it does work.
There are always times when you get stuck in melee combat, and personally I don’t enjoy helplessly spamming any available shot while I’m getting wrecked. Back in the in day I’d just pull out two swords and give them a run for their money. Does that sound like a Legolas moment, yes, but it was fun as hell.
Being able to dodge and parry while unleashing a flurry of attacks was freaken awesome. Add Deterrence, Counterattack, and a stacking DoT/Focus regen into the mix, and you have a practical use. Aspect of the Turtle is more of an aggravation than anything, and you gotta admit it’s more fun to just duke it out.
I really do like class fantasy of being a type of rambo or a mountain man. I’ve wished that instead of a mini wrist crossbow, we threw poison-tipped hatchets or something. A self heal like bandage (whatever the PvP talent is) should be baseline, too. I’ve always found it weird to call em survival yet nothing they do really sustains their health.
That’s a good description and exactly what I’m after too. Become their worst nightmare using the environment and having knowledge of forest healing and remedies. I wouldn’t mind having a camouflage ability sorta like classic shadowmeld, where you stay invisible as long as you don’t move.
Right now mastery is setup so that we periodically heal while our pet is out, further adding to the annoying dependency. I’d rather just heal off our dots, along with having first Mending Bandage and Exhilarate. I imagine hunters would know a bit about wilderness remedies and anti-venoms too. I love Mending Bandage for that reason.
I like that throwing weapon idea too, because I wouldn’t mind sinking a Rambo knife into some Horde. Actually on a side note, they recently added Rambo to Mortal Kombat lol.
Perhaps, though the comparison was more between how impactful specific choices were in the past vs. today, when it comes to talents and your playstyle.
The old system is comparable to what we see so far for Conduits and Soulbinds in the SL beta.
A lot of choices to make, each choice amounts to fairly little.
The difference is that Soulbinds and Conduits are intended to be external e.g. systems with a purpose of adding that little extra to the base class.
When the end result is equal to such a system, but it instead ties in with the fundamental class design, it tends to give you a “meh” feeling. Not for everyone ofc, but for a lot of players.
In the end, it comes down to what base system you want. One that revolves around the class as a whole, or one that focuses more on individual playstyles/sub-fantasies.
I mean, sure. We like different things for our experiences in games. But I don’t want WoW to not be WoW anymore. Live action-play is fine for certain games. But it wasn’t the intent with WoW.
Please stop saying that RSV was “a DoT-version of MM”. RSV was RSV and it’s design and intended gameplay did not promote the idea of “MM but with DoTs”.
Sure, it did not have the same burst potential as MM. But again…that was not the intent.
Again, it entirely depends on what you want from a game/experience.
Going for either extreme is/can be a bad thing however you decide to do it.
Current SV? Depends on who you ask really.
Again, personal preferences are what they are. But with this, it sounds as if utility is more of the problem, as opposed to damaging abilities.
Camouflage used to work like this.
When you moved, you could be targeted/players could see you. They could not attack you from afar though. And when you stood still, you gained Stealth.
KC is too much of our damage, but without exotic pets, two pets, or otherwise general pet focus, its just a pet spec, not a beast madtery spec. The themes are not at all beast mastery. There is no beast centric build. ITS ALL about bombs, poison and mongoose.
But yeah… downgrade KC a little bit. If you have a pet, “sic em” is going to be an important trick, but it would be nice to look back at the data and see something else taking that importance.
