Hey everyone!
What? Why? Who came up with the idea anyway?
I’m not a rogue, but even I’m outraged.
Also Veil of Midnight has been removed, holy moly…
And Vanish recently lasts only 1.5 seconds.
This is nonsense!
They should just delete Stealth from the game at this point, since apparently anything that mildly inconveniences people when fighting rogues can’t be allowed to exist. Just delete the entire class while you are at it
it’s terrible!
Yeah… Welp I’ll go back to vibing on Cata and be ready for MoP where all class designs were beyond beautiful! 
MoP was the zenith of Rogue design.
Oh no doubt I loved MoP rogue too with the first introduction of Shadow Blades and MFD. Although something about Rogue cata just feels… completed. Having x2 smoke bomb was wild.
Either way, good thing both of the best wow xpacs are right beside each other in release order.
Yea, its absolutely crazy we dont have Shadowy duel… why blizz removes things… all the time instead of adding more things and having us choose. SUB rogue needs a MAJOR change to form as Duel was one of the main reasons they win in arenas. NOT to mention they litterally changed the visuals when under the effects of shadowy duel only then to remove the ability the following patch?? Who works at blizz? Monkeys?
This is a weak bandaid fix for their garbage solo BG Blitz mode.
Instead of having solo queue rated BGs simply be actual BGs, they had to add some separate rule set literally no one asked for which has only 2 healers instead of the typical 3, probably to reduce queue times since they’ve neglected PvP for 10 years and no one is participating.
In Blitz shadowy duel is stronger than any other mode because removing 50% of the heals for even just 6 seconds gets the team losing the healer crushed the majority of the time; when timed poorly its strong, when timed well its disgusting.
In actual rated BGs its not nearly as strong because the remaining 2 healers can easily pick up the slack.
So its a classic case of them adding something half-baked that no one asked for, then finding a problem with something that already existed, and removing it to help prop up their garbage.
Thats on the playerbase as well. PvP players are even more exclusive than the M+ community.
PVP players embrace players all the time.
M+ is why delves are so popular.
Eh, no. I wouldn’t say it’s accurate to imply the PVP community is generally welcoming.
PVP community is very welcoming.
Go to arena and bg forums and see for yourself. Don’t be shy! You might accidentally make some friends.
They are often rating shaming goons and other nonsense behavior. Didn’t get popped in the mouth enough growing up for sure and it shows.
Can’t allow anyone to have any “I-win” buttons in PvP. Understandable, I guess.
Shadowy duel was never an I win button. That is like saying Pally bubble is an I win button.
Not to mention shamans can also burrow with the flag in games too. Duel was the main way Sub got kills, last expansion and especially this expansion. Sub has been through the gutter like all expansion (i havent been able to land kills almost at all as sub this expansion, this hurts it tremendously more). Looks like Sub is out this expansion yall
Smh… at least give us something back.
Idea for new pvp ability replacing shadowy duel: when the active target health falls bellow 20% you gain 1 charge of vanish. This effect can only occur once every 4min (or x minutes).
Edit #1
Here is another idea: when the active target health falls bellow 20% your next finishing move applies with full combo points. This effect can only occur once every 2min (or x minutes).
It’s bad for the game and shouldn’t have ever been implemented. You ask who but it’s been one of the only things the pvp community agreed on since its inception lol.
I think mop was us flying too close to the sun. Subterfuge is objectively the worst decision they ever made when it comes to balancing rogues and can be linked to probably every pvp nerf we’ve ever had since. Excluding maybe pruning Shadowy Duel which should’ve happened on the PTR.
We were simply too strong in MoP. (While being probably the weakest melee lol) Burst of Speed was a problem. They hamfisted design by taking away prep early expansion, putting it on a choice-node with Step. Then when they returned prep baseline they forgot to put Step back on it which just felt awful not being able to prep step.
Cloak and dagger before it got nerfed was just gamebreaking, but was so popular with new players it probably paved the way for Shadowstrike being the noodle teleport it is.
Giving us shadowblades also Imo was indirectly a nerf as it allocated our burst into a 3 minute cd down from being lethal every 1m. Being able to solo kill shamans because i popped blades from stealth & chained a vanish for 6s of invisible subterfuge murder was fun but idk. It’s like they gave us too much.
It was all really fun, but really broken.
I much prefer a more barebones trad rogue like wotlk. cata’s nice but it’s similar to mop where we’re too strong for our own good. I came into these forums in the MoP era to caution this and I was right.
We were too strong, we got nerfed as a result. Same for WOD, universal combo points was such an insane handicap & it took a long time for people to realize how OP rogue was about ot become, and we are where we are now indirectly as a result.
People putting blinders on and not recognizing Shadowy Duel for the wild card cooldown it was that just dwarfed any other classes utility is weird to me. It wasn’t an “I Win” button, but it was the most versatile game-changing cooldown ever implemented. It’s smokebomb for a kill. It’s a form of CC that doesn’t DR with anything. It’s a pseudo immunity.
It’s a super cool ability thats had its fair share of bugs too. It was also a chain that bound us.
by having shadowy duel they couldn’t give subtlety any real power, otherwise we would just actually have an i win button. think pre nerf flag rogues in SL
MoP was really an over compensation for the large nerfs at the start of MoP. Rogues were at their strongest toward the end of Cata which precipitated the nerfs to Rogues across the board at the start of MoP expansion.
But over time with the first and second patch the nerfs were reverted to Blind, Vanish CDs, Prep made baseline, vanish glyphy immunity made baselne, etc.
Introduction of MFD and BoS.
Shadow Duel was always problematic to balance but I never viewed it as an I win button. Personally speaking Subs PVP talent Cold Blood when it existed was a long stronger than shadowy duel. The difference is most players can see shadowy duel used compared to PVP talent cold blood.
Given at that point that smokebomb and dismantle were no longer part of the base kit and Sub lost silence garrote via stealth/shadow dance I never viewed shadowy duel as OP. Hard to balance yes, but OP or I win button not really.
So yeah Sub has lost too many tools now and is over reliant on multiple shadow dance charges now.
Shouldn’t exist based off this alone imo. Because they’re not even capable of balancing things that should be easy. lol