Sub Rogue Arena changes?

PVP Arenas
1

With the removal of Shadowy Duel and Sub already being one of the worst arena specs, I am hoping we see some Sub rogue changes soon. I suggested my take in the undermined forum but the TLDR is
Make finishers outside of shadow dance just as good as within shadow dance. This would allow Sub to at least function and have some sort of meaningful damage when not dancing because right now it’s complete garbage. You would still be energy starved quite a bit outside of dance as well as lose access to stealth moves and stronger builder ability.

Same issue existed with Demon hunter where damage outside of Meta was trash compared to within meta. This was adjusted and outside of meta damage is much better .

2

The damage change to abilities outside of meta was literally like a 1% change. Having your felblade go from 135k to 160k is not make or break for sustain damage, so let’s not spew garbage in an attempt to get rogue some compensation for a skill it shouldn’t have had in the first place.

Duel being gone is good for the health of the game. Sub rogues not having lethal damage every kidney is good for the game.

3 Likes
3

I’m not arguing about Duel being gone as good. I agree with that. And I’m also not arguing for damage during Dance(or in your case you’re arguing kidney shot which is 30 second cooldown) I’m asking for damage outside of Those cooldowns. Sub rogue damage in dance is okay and probably very comparable to Demon hunter in meta but slightly more utility. Demon Hunter damage outside of Meta however Is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE meaningful compared to sub rogue outside of shadow dance. If you don’t believe me try to win games without Meta on a demon hunter and then try to win a game using everything but Shadow dance on a rogue. It’s not even in the same realm of damage. Kidney shot would not even be a thought without dance. Then take away shadowy Duel on top of that which is one of the very few win conditions sub has atm(Which again I am okay with losing as long as there is something to offset some of that loss)

4

sub rogue players losing their minds over duel being removed despite having the most S tier seasons of all classes probably

Sub needs some pruning to happen to its kit, like many other specs have went through, some even multiple times. This is a painful but needed step.

4 Likes
5

lol, lmao.

4 Likes
6

Previous seasons are irrelevant to the discussion and clearly should not be a factor in how the spec performs now. I don’t think there are a lot of people upset over duel being lost. The concerning part for sub rogue players is that it is removed with nothing added on a season that even with duel sub rogue is bottom 1/4 of dps. I am just offering a solution that does not just pour more damage into dance but rather gives sub rogue more meaningful damage outside of it’s main cooldown.

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STOOOOO0PED

R
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8

It’s true sub rogue isn’t good rn

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9

Do you disagree? I should have clarified and said melee specs and not all specs. What melee do you think is worse at this stage of the game? Also not saying it’s unplayable but overall it is performing worse than most other specs. You can look at solo shuffle as an example and there are less Sub 2400 than any other melee. There are only 24 SUB above 2400 and the closest comparable is Demon hunter at 36 with Survival hunter also at 36. Keep in mind Sub has historically been a very high representation spec so I don’t see how it’s hard to argue it is one of the worst melee specs.

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right? I mean, I’m not agreeing with buffing subs or anything, but people saying that X class should be unplayable now because it was good from season 65464 to 89855 is some peanut brain sheet. Like oh sorry I didnt know I had to inherit the sins of my fathers

that is unironically why some people think rdruid should be the way they are rn

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11

It’s weird to me that they didn’t just prune the ability or add a considerable damage reduction to it (so it was only used as a sort of crowd control instead of cheese kill) back in Shadowlands when it was actually a problem.

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12

Let’s not pretend Outlaw and Sin being S+ makes sub bad.

2 Likes
13

Rogues shoud be gutted to the dirt toolkit wise. In no scenario should rogues possess 2 insanely easy win conditions and hold damage way above every other class in a small window during one of said 2 win conditions. Now if your class had very low damage i wouldnt mind letting you keep the both but unforch blizzard gave you damage and both resulting in this eventual outcome

Inb4 “YOU TRIPPING DABDADDY AUGH BAD TAKE GET GOOD”

Ahem

  • stun healer
  • stun you into smoke bomb
  • either you or healer trinks to rescue you (not evoker ability :rage: )
  • wait about like 15 sec for dr bs to wear off and any defensives used to mitigate hp loss
  • lol trollface into shadowrealm popped all cds 100-0 in 3 seconds turned into a red smoothie on the floor

You can either have

A: no damage but very great toolkit

Or

B: damage but no toolkit

You cant have both goodbye

5 Likes
14

Maybe in the past this would have been a good argument but right now absolutely every dps has damage and a good toolkit. Shadow dance is our damage cooldown as recklessness and avatar are a warriors. Fury warrior gets reck quite frequently. these classes do not suffer near as much as a sub rogue without their dps cooldowns. I’ve seen fury warriors maintain 1.5 million dps in a game and that’s about what a sub rogue can do with absolutely every cooldown and stars aligning for maybe 6 seconds. Sub generally ends the match around 600k dps tops and generally lowest damage on damage meter.

I would be interested to see how every one that doesn’t think Sub rogue is toward the bottom of the list melee dps wise would think if they played a sub rogue right now. Then factor in losing shadowy duel next patch with nothing given and hold the same opinion.

15

Sub is bad objectively.

Its damage windows are heavily scripted and telegraphed. Good players counter it easily.

2 Likes
16

We better tell Kalvish that. 2nd highest rogue on the ladder, r1 range, and his spec is unplayable against good players.

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The best of the best can make it work but that doesn’t make sub any better overall. There have always been players of all classes almost every season that can perform a cut above the rest on a spec/class that is considered unplayable.

I would venture to guess even Kalvish the best sub rogue in the game right now would agree. Whaazz as well. Another player the could for sure make sub work would agree it is lacking and needs something. There is no doubt that once shadowy duel is removed the spec will be extremely hard for even these players to make work if nothing else is done.

18

So wait, we need to pick a lane.

Is sub a cheap gimmick that only works at 1400, or is sub an insanely skill based spec only the top players can make work?

Or are we just going to admit all 3 rogue specs are good, but 2 are beyond busted and need massive nerfs, and sub is actually fine.

3 Likes
19

I’m not sure how out of all that i said you came to that conclusion lol. Just because 1 player that competes in the AWC with AWC teammates can get within r1 range as a spec does NOT make sub fine. Sub needs something and again you discount the fact that sub LOSES an EXTREMELY strong ability altogether soon.

So again if sub is struggling right now(except for Kalvish LOL), does it get stronger or weaker losing a huge cooldown?

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How can you say all rogue specs are beyond broken? Outlaw is an s tier livelord, assa is okay but the damage isn’t that high compared to other melee, sub? When I see subs in a solo lobby I don’t even pay attention to them. The only ones you worry about are playing 2s

1 Like