Eh to be honest how is it different from the Bloodelves/Nightbourne working along side trolls. Or Anyone following Sylvanas after the events of the war of thorns.
The fact that it could be this divide in the Alliance and perhaps an Alliance civil war would be great for the Alliance. Perhaps the Void elves could be treated as expendable by the Lightbound and treated as fodder(like back in war 3), The Nightleves might be all for siding with a group like the Lightbound, I mean Elune is tied to the naruu who knows how that might play out.
I want a bit of divide in the Alliance instead of being such a passively good guy faction. If It means we have to kill or get rid of characters like Anduin to get it, I am all for it.
you will loose all wars and your hero’s will be killed off, if they do make it. Then they will be turned into a shell of their former self. Being bad does give you teeth but only to push a faction conflict, but after that it is just… well death and defeat.
BfA sure feels like Blizzard agrees with you on this at least.
Isn’t this exactly what you’re asking the Alliance not to do for Anduin?
How is the Horde any different from the Alliance there?
I would bet on Sylvanas working with whatever put her in charge instead of her not being aware of it, yeah.
I’m not talking about whether the Horde or good people. I’m saying they only act against the Warchief when the Warchief is a Horde-centric threat. Anduin isn’t making threats against the Alliance, and when Garrosh and Sylvanas weren’t making threats against the Horde the Horde didn’t do anything against them, either.
While I agree with you on this, I also don’t think anyone in this thread has actually made any suggestions on how to make Anduin more likeable, or how to not hit the Alliance with the villain bat.
I still point out this didn’t work out for the Horde players who wanted to stay loyal to Sylvanas when ultimately all they got was “Play along.”
The Alliance can’t give Anduin the benefit of the doubt when they never doubted him in the first place. I find it unbelievable that the Alliance has no dissenters whatsoever to Anduin’s appointment when there are obvious reasons for why he isn’t the most qualified. Meanwhile, the Horde has never transitioned to a new Warchief with 100% approval rating.
I don’t see how this contradicts my point or how why this is a problem, narratively speaking. Vol’jin was a foil for Garrosh long before he was the target of an assassination attempt, and revolutions don’t typically happen when things are going fine for the people.
I didn’t offer any specifics, but otherwise that’s exactly what I’ve been trying to do. Anduin is unlikable because he is a textbook Mary-Sue. My suggestions are to build tension between him and his allies and have him struggle more with his decisions, like any well-written character would do. Right now he is only sad because people are dying because “war is hell,” he has yet to reflect on any of his decisions. This in no way means hitting the Alliance with the “villain bat.”
Maybe when we talk about making the Alliance ‘morally gray’ we can start with introducing the idea that Horde races are thinking, feeling people to Alliance questing, and then see how we feel from there?
Maybe just once, the Alliance kill a Tauren medic desperately tending to the wounded, or an orc drops a letter intended for his children? Maybe some goblins die with their last words full of anger and sorrow instead of cheap jokes about hazard pay?
Maybe, while we’re on it, we stop using the fantasy stand-ins for non-European cultures as the faceless barbarian hordes at the gates so the Male Human Paladin crowd can fulfill their ‘defending western civilization’ fetish? Maybe?
BFA was a perfect opportunity to make the alliance a bit more grey, if they just reversed the battles of UC and the war of thorns around so that UC was first. That would be morally grey for both sides. The Alliance would have some justification for attacking first after the events in MoP in order to prevent another garrosh, and would give the horde some moral high ground for utilizing every tactic it could think of to defend itself from the impossible alliance juggernaut.
Instead what we got was an incredibly weak Horde flailing around impotently at the alliance while the alliance are shouting “dont make us use our full strength, or we will isntantly defeat you!”
Might I make a suggestion on the “dark” turn I want to see from the alliance? There are two paths, one would make me angrier than the other.
After the horde gets credit for stopping two old god threats this expansion (g’huun and N’Zoth) , the alliance now has no choice but to try and take revenge for teldrasil, as Anduin will almost certainly have to assist the night elves to keep them in the alliance. With this route, Glenn will HAVE to feel betrayed. This will cause meaningful conflict. Horde survives.
This next one will cause me much anger. The Horde wins a Pyrrhic victory over N’Zoth. Too weak to maintain their borders, the alliance move in and take an unconditional surrender. When deciding what to do with the lands now humans and dwarves (who would be the top 2 powers at this point) try to take more winnings, causing meaningful friction between alliance races. Aka conflict.
I don’t need to see divine retribution given in a manner that would compromise the alliance’s…morals. They need conflict though.
Last before anyone question why I think the Horde should get credit for major old god defeats. G’Huun was already canonically killed by the horde. IF and this is a big if, Sylvanas is playing 75d chess then she defeats N’Zoth or is a key element in his defeat. Else, she isnt a cold calculated planner and all claims of her being written out of character this expansion will at best be given merit, at worst be proven true.
I know, but honestly how could anybody claim people weren’t paying attention to Sylvanas’ character if at this point in the expansion it’s revealed that she isn’t a schemer? I guess her master plan could be join N’Zoth or just abandon ship to become a death deity or something. But then her parts about caring for the horde/forsaken in BtS are pointless. Working for whatever put her in charge even though she states she didn’t want it also wouldn’t be very different than her “employment” by Arthas, which is again out of character. They stepped in my quagmire of over analysis big time with this…
Either way inconsistencies in this supposedly planned out story. In which case would people realize the ridiculous nature of this expansion from Horde players point of view.
Seems like that wouldnt do much to improve anything makes the expanasion horde commits atrocity gets to kill both big bads and the alliance gets to help them some.
Genn feeling betrayed and throwing a fit was sylvsnas first plan for going after teld. Instead genn gave his support to the elves helping them reclaiming their land because you know the elves helped him more than stormwind ever has.
It is based on sylvanas old plan snd her belief the alliance is self centered and short sighted . If anduin says letd go get elf stuff bacj she expected grnn to throw as fit that they werent helping him first and he would take his ball and go home because he only care about himself in her mind.
Tldr sylvanas forgot the alliance is not the horde abd doesn’t crumble as soon as person as l objectives arent being met
I mean, if you take the route where the nelfs get helped first, then the worgen complaining about Gilneas, which is still not a burnt husk, would seemingly be all talk. Plus it’s safer territory now that the Easter Kingdom forsaken is all but gone. I’m not sure which is more important after the fact, good usable land, or revenge for a decimated homeland. Maybe a story can answer this… Also, the only time this could be a factor is if they don’t go with the immediate dismantle of the Horde. In which case situation 2 is more prevalent.
Which true, at this point in time in the story, but quid pro quo changes all the time. If Anduin, actively helped the nelfs first, why would general worgen be okay with that. Especially if they are now “sending farmers”.
Honestly, it’s not about short-sightedness. This is just my opinion about how to not make alliance nuke cities with the Vindicaar while having meaningful narratives to play in that doesn’t completely destroy a sense of morality.
Because the night elves shared their home cured the curse mostly and allowed them to make second home with them fir nearly 10 years. Most eorgen know it was the noght rlves that save them from sylvanas so them helping their closest allies makes senes when their home is suposedly blighted as much as undercity
i mean, you answered your own question.
the worgen not only are okay with the nelfs but also they send their troops to assist them, we can even see them in darkshore right now with lorna and every named gilnean npc.
They will help the nelfs first and foremost.
i don’t think that your idea of conflict could work.
instead, if we really want to have conflict we have the opportunity right now.
jaina and anduin wants to help the cows because baine was cool.
but only the nelfs would be capable to send meaningful help now that theramore is gone.
so we just need tyrande to say “no, i don’t want to defend a horde race” and then we have it, believable conflict.
But we know Blight can be removed. Not sure if it would just end up like Teldrasil because the Wrathgate was burnt with fire. But what we do know is that the Tree is destroyed. If you go to help nelfs, its not to reclaim land as that is all but taken care of already when Nathanos says Horde is losing on every front. Which includes Darkshore. At which point its pure revenge. I was trying to at least keep some sense of not pure darkness with my suggestion. Especially since Nathanos, the commander, would’ve had to abandon it by this point in the story to be in Nazjatar. It’s no longer a fight. So maybe it wouldn’t work as Nelfs shouldn’t need any help at this point. But for some reason I hear the cry that enough hasn’t been done for Teldrasil. Shown in game, nope, but in practice, they already won…
But Tyrande saying no isn’t conflict unless Anduin / Jaina make it so. Conflicts between two groups. Do I think either of them will make that a conflict? No. It would be Sylvanas coming for Thunderbluff and dealing with Horde stuff. Would that be good for the Alliance as a whole? Yes, but narratively would that be satisfying to play through? No. It sounds like mechano-cat all over again.
I don’t think your version of conflict would work as it literally isn’t conflict. Unless Anduin does something and tries to pull rank or position, to force Tyrande’s hand, or Jaina does something to try to force Tyrande ‘s hand. I doubt both for some reason…
Also, it’s not about making a “darker” alliance. It’s about examining choices and effects. Or are you fine not seeing it? Or are you fine with WoW ending right then and there as there would be no point in updating the world. It would be stagnant.