After some weeks of data and now that the tier is pretty much widespread.
Ret did not crumble in the graph or tank to the bottom as some predicted, it sits pretty steadily in the upper middle section.
Incidentally, the paladin forums fell awfully quiet in light of this.
Now this does not mean that you need to be happy about HOW we achieve this.
We’re hard carried by a 30sec CD, 20% amp, 40% uptime buff that delay our damage by 12 sec.
Removing it is basically renouncing any semblance of competitive ST damage.
So how does everyone feel about ES?
Would you rather see it gone and its damage packed into the ST abilities and FR?
And if so, what would be the repartitions?
ES is about the equivalent of a 8% all damage buff over a minute (on ST).
i mean ive stated that ret will sink to mid, and its still sinking as people gear up in raid.
im not quiet about this at all.
warcraftlogs com/zone/statistics/38/#dataset=95 mythic
warcraftlogs com/zone/statistics/38/#dataset=95&difficulty=4 heroic
warcraftlogs com/zone/statistics/38/#dataset=95&difficulty=3 normal
as we still get regulated and people gear up we start seeing stark contrast in rets place in various difficulties.
it was nice to see ret be adopted in the last bosses of mythic world first race. but do keep in mind its simply due to rets ability to freedom two people at the same time and blessing of protection. as we see from the mythic logs, other specs are stronger dps wise and if it wasnt for phase 1 spider mommy then it was likely ret wouldnt have seen the final boss.
that being said, ES is fine. we’re addressing the wrong problem here. the main issue is that our st spenders are very weak compared to generators and even divine storm.
radiant glory is also its own issue but its popular enough that alot of ret players in every tier is waving it off. ultimately its sadly here to stay which means we’re very likely going to be tuned around it
See, when they nerfed FR significantly for AoE, they subsequently buffed the AoE of all of our other AoE abilities.
We were all kind of puzzled at that time as to why they were nerfing ST but buffing AoE but I think this is their rational.
Hypothetically, in a ST scenario, you would always use ES, which means they need to account for it when they balance Ret ST damage which means both the damage of spenders and builders alike.
They also added a mastery effect that will hit for 2/3 of FV damage every now and then on judgement and HoW.
The fact that it has this much uptime makes it so they have to consider it.
I don’t think we’ll ever see FV “slaps” harder as long as ES exist in its current form.
That’s exactly my point for ST about ES, all our other damage button are tuned taking it into account for ST, its “strength” is such that we can’t not take it anymore.
I’d like it to be either removed or put back at 1min to at least make FR a consideration again.
It’s such a better spell than ES, it’s a shame it has been dealt such a blow.
According to Archon Warcraftlogs which updates frequently, as of 7 hours ago, we’re in 5th place in M+ and 10th place in Raid. And despite that, we’re STILL doing very well compared to most other classes.
Let me repeat, top 10 in Raid and 5th place in M+. That doesn’t sound like the bottom to me. And this is after specs like DK’s, Rogues and Shamans getting updated tuning while the last few patches we received two nerfs in the form of our Mastery and Herald.
People were dooming and glooming on how we were gonna fall real fast to the bottom and wailed like little girls.
The silence now is deafening.
(Just be glad we’re not Fury Warriors. Those guys got hit HARD with the nerf bat. THIS is why you don’t want to be number 1 because you get on Blizzard’s radar)
not really tbh, you can make more of a arguement that rg is the reason why our spenders are weak, or the amount of spender amps in the tree is the reason why theyre weak, or judgement itself. es is just well…a “burst” button
basically what seraphim haters thought seraphim was.
FR was kinda different, that was nerfed to lower the difference between cleave and st builds by making es and fr more competitive. both are interchangeable but its fine.
ret st has alot of room to grow, its not even strong in boss damage. i dont think with our new mastery its wouldnt be bad to buff our spenders.
theres been alot of times where our st was decent enoguh even with ES existing. keep in mind that our current es is kinda weird compared to es we do like.
i think we’re kinda agreeing on the same thing but putting the blame on different abilities. this is ultimately a result of moving so much burst into consistent damage with es and now rg being so readily available. i know people like consistent damage outside of burst but ret has ended up way to deep into the other side along side with the generator and spender gap.
buffing fr wouldnt be a solution. its really just as simple as buffing spenders by a decent amount to fix a load of issues.
Why not? They update every few hours and they get their data directly from Wacraftlogs. Do you have any inside info on why they’re not good to reference?
I have done nothing but a single normal run with my pvp gear lmao
And I didnt like ES at all. Id say remove it and bake that into fv. Pull back om other “collateral” damage sources like new mastery and bake that too into fv.
But yet they buffed the AoE of everything we had though.
RG affects all our kit, it exist regardless in ST or AoE, so if all else being equal RG is present in both scenario.
What made them go “buff AoE and Nerf ST”, again the RG variable is the same, it’s constant, so which OTHER variable changes for those scenarios?
ES changed and FR changed, we have to look at them for the reason the base spells were changed.
Them and mastery, mastery affect the whole kit but the new effect has more influence over the ST given how HoW doesn’t cleave like judgement.
This might be dramatic that would be something like a 60% increase to FV.
I know YOU would like that but most likely it would be spread across the abilities.
The thing about mastery new effect is that its mechanics allow for triggering effect like SL and DA in their less desirable scenario more consistently, effectively helping resolve the issue with the shift from AoE to ST.
Obviously they could reduced the actual damage of the effect and leave the mechanic in too.
ehh archon just looks at raw numbers and makes tierlists based on population not by performance.
i mean, i used to love es. but now i can care less if it was removed or not. but they would have to do some serious design changes to remove es or else our only cd buttons would be wake and dt if they cant make fr a actual burst cd.
I’ll concede our single target could use some love but being an M+ player, I care about how Divine Storm operates effectively. I do realize PvE and PvP are different animals.
…in comparison to other classes using Warcraft logs. That would be considered legit data. Hell, Warcraftlogs graphs can be considered a “tier list.”
again, ret st has alot of room to grow. i dont think es was the reason it was “nerfed” or else they would have nerfed our st in dragonflight.
i honestly think its just a case of ret having way to much power due to instruments of retribution making a 60% uptime rg into 90% uptime
raw numbers as in “how many people play this spec and what keys they do” more not actual data. sorry i wasnt clear. was in a hurry
again, fr would have to be buffed to be competitive if the idea is remove es and bake it into all our abilities. cause rn it needs to do more than just increase spender damage.
considering rg is now our 30 second window. the spec could use a new 1min or 1:30 min cd like sub is getting. i just dont think fr is that cd if it only buffs spenders
don’t think about how much it would need to be buffed too much, if ES power goes back into the base abilities its not much of a concern.
Liberate this design space to make it actually interesting.
No more “added seconds” or “generate 3 hp” those have been made useless by the direction Ret went in (for FR specifically).
The visual and sound of it are already bangers, upfront damage big beam of light coming from the sky but then the lingering effect is a glorified judgement.
So what are the effects that people were fond of going back?
What could we add to it?
I liked light decree, could it be possible to make those work together?
What would YOU like to see added on it?
In DF our mastery was nerfed and all around worse.
We also add many abilities that didn’t scale well, they didn’t need to because it needed to be stronger.
We got by in the last seasons (3-4) by having a legendary with it’s effect that carried part of the damage as well, effect that couldn’t go into ES as damage either so there was no reason to nerf it.
Disagree. It’s not just about "how many people play this spec and what keys they do”. Here’s their own words on how they rank specs…
"We pull data from the official Blizzard leaderboard so that (this is key) all runs are included, even those that weren’t logged. The score shown in the boxes is the 95th percentile value for that spec. Select a spec to dig into detailed data about its build options.
Mythic+ Score is a good metric to use because players need a combination of damage, utility, and survivability to push high keys."
This sounds like good data to me.
And here’s an important aspect no one really talks about: Not everyone logs into Warcraft Logs. It’s a good point to use but like every other data/tier driven center, even data from there isn’t necessarily accurate and precise.
lights decree would be nice if we had 1min wingsd back
i would like to see rg removed tbh but that wont happened. i wouldnt mind seeing seraphim coming back as a true 1min cd since it is stronger than fr and wings. especially with our new suped up mastery and scaling’s
think about it tho, with herald wake procing dp, the main complaint o
so idk man, thats a lie. cause i know a guy who works in the company internally and they scrapped that idea for more population favored since it makes them look unique in a world full of other websites like it. unless they changed it for the better. i could ask xeph again but the general consensus in classcords was “take everything you read on archon with a grain of salt”
this also goes for max and murlok or that other one i forget
people should log in logs as much as they can. its a good data point that needs to be used. its a good metric of data of accurate data and a way to improve.
Okay. Not that I’m doubting you or your inside source, but this is inside info most of us don’t know, which is why people like myself may use Archon. And this can be applied to ANY other data-driven center. That being said, I’ll take your word according to your inside source and keep it in the back of my mind next time I use it as a reference.
That would be greatly helpful to everyone.
I understand your reasoning which is sound but this is worth repeating: someone in the DK or Warrior forum brought up an interesting point that not everyone logs into Warcraft Logs. It’s a good point to use but like every other data/tier driven center, even data from there isn’t necessarily accurate and precise.
Although I’ll concede it may possibly be the best center to get data from as of this moment.