So is it all but official that Calia is the leader of the Forsaken now?
even if she isnāt officially, the fact sheās the forsaken representative in the opening quests of shadowlands seems to indicate that sheās the de-facto leader, yeah.
Calia and Derek. The memes popping up about it all is already amusing me.
Iāve never been all that opposed to them being involved in Forsaken leadership TBH.
I think Calia being the sole leader is a mistake, itās too much of a drastic shift. Iād prefer her to be possibly a figurehead, maybe the representative on the Horde Council while a new Desolate Council rules the Forsaken.
Or possibly Alonsus returns and she and Alonsus act as sort of a new spirtual side of the Forsaken.
Thereās definitely interesting possibilities with Calia being involved in the Forsaken, none of which Iām sure Blizzard will implement.
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Oh I agree. But given weāve been given the rough equivilant to looking through a keyhole atm, I am not keen to comment too intently until the final product appears.
Even then, I probably still wouldnāt comment much since Iāve personally never been a huge fan of Forsaken other than thinking they were neat pre-BfA
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Thatās fair, itās entirely possible that sheās just a figurehead. For the sake of Forsaken fans I hope so
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I have many thoughts on Calia and was actually debating this in the Undercity United discord last night. Hereās more or less what I said then.
Part 1: Why Calia is unpopular
I understand the idea that Calia is detached from the narrative of Forsaken. She did not break free of Arthas. She did not die at his hand. She was never a slave to the Scourge. She was never rejected and reviled by the people of Lordaeron. She was never forced into the arms of her former enemies in the Horde, merely to survive .
So from that point of view, Calia shows up, a human who survived the Scourge. Lived in secret, in Southshore until it was destroyed before the Forsaken. Lost her husband and child as a result. Then studies under Alonsus Faol as a Priestess of the Light. When she finally does die, in Before the Storm, itās after she tries to convince a bunch of Desolate Council members (a sorta provisional Undercity government while Sylvanas was busy being Warchief) to defect to the Alliance, moving towards the gates of Stromgarde. To add insult to injury, the Forsaken whose identity has long revolved around being forsaken even by their very faith, thus leading them to the Cult of the Forgotten Shadowā¦ are gifted a new potential leader whoās infused with Light. Calia is a polarising figure, presenting a stark contrast to everything the Forsaken have long stood for. Where they seek vengeance, she advocates reconciliation. Where they feel hurt and betrayed, she seeks healing. Where they find comfort in the shadows, she brings back the Light. Where they were rejectedā¦ she was welcomed.
Part 2: Personal Opinion
With all of the above consideredā¦ I actually support Calia as future Queen. For a few reasons. Predictable perhaps, but hear me out.
- The Forsakenās history does precede the Scourge.
The Human Kingdom of Lordaeron was known as the most faithful and powerful Light-worshipping Kingdom in humanity. This is still a part of Forsaken history, and without going into all the details of Lordaeronian historyā¦ the Menethils were a powerful line, wielding great influence both domestically and internationally. Itās still a part of Forsaken history, and I believe there would still be some who look to the past with a hint of nostalgia - after all, retaking Lordaeron became the Forsakenās focus after the fall of Arthas. It was their land. They recognised that much of their history. Perhaps, in the absence of Sylvanas, some might look to a new undead Queen from an old lineā¦and more peaceful times.
- The Forsaken need a change in direction, superficial or legitimate, to survive.
Like it or not, we Forsaken have been responsible for a lot of atrocities. We claim to be free willed Undead, weāve long claimed to be spurned victims of the Scourgeā¦ and yet our behaviour as a people has been not dissimilar to the Scourge itself. The Wrathgate. The unprovoked blighting of Gilneas. The destruction of Southshore and Hillsbrad Fields. The conquest of Andorhal, and Silverpine. The blighting of Darkshore. Now you might argue that many of those were justified from a certain point of view, and in many cases Iād agree with you. That said, the path we Forsaken are on right nowā¦ is a destructive one. We focus on revenge. We destroy, often in unrepentantly monstrous ways. In time, if the lore is going to be remotely satisfying, the world is going to hold us to account. With that in mind, the Forsaken need a reformation. They need to at least appear to be less overtly villainous, if they are to have any chance at survival.
- Conclusion
With that in mind, I think Calia could represent a positive change within the Forsaken. Do I think she should suddenly flip the attitudes of the entire Forsaken people? No. Not at all. But she does offer an alternative. An ancient legacy, coupled with a less malicious nature, may lead to a stable Forsaken society, in the long term. Will everyone agree with her? No. In fact, I hope not. I WANT Calia to change as well. I want her to learn from the Forsaken people. I want her to embrace the shadows, and wield the spirit of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow - balance. Iād like to see her as a disc priest, using both Light and Shadow, holding a piece of Menethil Lordaeron and Forsaken Lordaeron, and merging them to create a new future for the Forsaken people. For this to be done right, and in a satisfying way, itās going to take time. Sheās going to have to EARN the respect of the Forsaken people, and I truly hope Blizz tells a story thatās fulfilling in that regard. But, in conclusion, I support her as future Queen, as I think sheāll move the Forsaken away from a path to self annihilation, but I also HOPE sheāll accomodate more and more of the traditional Forsaken ideologies, making a compromise, not a reformation.
TL:DR: Totally get why people hate Calia. Personally think the Forsaken need her, or someone like her to bring much needed change to some aspects of Forsaken society. But for her to work as Queen, I think the Forsaken need to change her as well.
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Do you think Calia would have been received better if her character design was edgier
Black hair, dark eyeshadow, red lipstick and a spooky dress wouldāve gone a lone way to gaining the respect of Azerothās most metal race
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This is very well thought out and put together. Broadly speaking, I agree that Calia represents certain perspectives that the Forsaken really need to adopt.
However, I think the issue of her not having shared in any of the Forsakenās experiences since the Third War is a big problem. Itās not very narratively satisfying, but more importantly, I find it hard to accept that the Forsaken would be very pleased to accept her as their Queen.
If I were a Forsaken, and somebody showed up who:
- Was, as the only surviving member of the royal family after Arthas killed Terenas, supposed to have been the leader of my country
- Avoided being killed and risen unlike the vast majority of her people
- Proceeded to then go into hiding for years
- And finally came back as a cool undead who was One With the Light (which burns me), friends with the living humans (who rejected me), and who has never been part of the Scourge (which subjugated me)
Then I think Iād be kind of pissed.
If they just plant Calia in the leadership spot, and donāt explore her needing to earn the respect and loyalty of the Forsaken based on the above, then itās going to seem dumb (to me).
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In terms of just appearance? Nah. I think peopleās issues are more story related than how she actually looks.
It wouldāve gone a long way if she wasnāt raised as a Lightbound Forsaken though. Thatāsā¦ been a weird and unnecessary story element. If anything Natalie Seline and the Forgotten Shadow should have played a role in her ressurection - theyāre involved in Netherlight Temple too. So maybe the overltly āLightā design is contributory to the discontent.
Agreed, hence my own commentary. She needs to earn the position - she canāt just suddenly claim it. I think she CAN earn it, but to be satisfying itās going to take time and sheās going to need to make a few compromises to be more like her people
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The fact that she just shows up as an apparent Horde leader at the beginning of Shadowlands isnāt super promising, but Iām still hoping for a continuation of the desolate council concept on the home front.
Weāve had plenty of established Forsaken characters that could use some love, instead of what is essentially a brand new character to the game itself (if you didnāt play a priest) introduced in a novel that Iām probably not going to read. Lillianā¦ doesnāt really count, to me, considering how much of an inexplicably different character she was in BfA compared to her previous appearances. I donāt hate Calia, but Iām leery of how the writing is going to establish her suddenly being in charge. Hopefully Iām wrong.
This. I canāt effectively communicate how ridiculous the notion of Lightbound Undead is to me.
Yeah even as someone whose character is partially inspired by Sir Zeliek, and can actually use the Light at a pinch (hence my dumb paladin armor) I was likeā¦ really confused by that choice. It felt very weird.
The Forsaken can USE the Light. Iām not actually against Calia wielding it. But Undead and Light donāt go together easily. It hurts VERY badly to use the Light, it takes great resilience and determination.
So even as a Forsaken Light fan, I feel that having ālightboundā undead actually cheapens the experience. If Calia wields the Light it should hurt her as much as it hurts the rest of the Undead.
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I feel the same way. I have more than one Forsaken who can use the Light, and I think itās a really interesting dynamic.
But having an undead created by the Light just seems to negate pretty much all the physical and emotional difficulties that undeath brings. It also seriously dilutes the distinctions of the different types of magic. I mean what is the difference between Light and Death, other than the fact that the narrative tells me that one of them is nice and the other isnāt?
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Iāve never played forsaken so I donāt really have a dog in this fight but it does feel very silly to act as if being āQueen of Lordaeronā means anything when the forsaken are apparently permanent exiles to Kalimdor and probably donāt even consist primarily of former Lordaeronians anymore due to attrition of the original scourge breakaways.
Now, a plot with Calia re-establishing Lordaeron and somehow rebuilding Capital City as a real (above-ground?) home for all Lordaeronians, living and unliving, allowing the Forsaken who choose to do so to re-connect with their lost heritageā¦ that would be neat. But queen of lordaeron = queen of forsaken who all now live in Durotar and are probably half night elves by now is sort of silly.
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Calia is worth complaining about solely on the fact that, from all indiciations of how they are presenting her right out of the gate in Shadowlands, she seems to be just one more entry on the list of Blizzard saying in no uncertain terms that they arenāt doing the incredibly obvious thing, and then proving it to be a bald-faced lie.
Setting aside whether or not Calia becoming leader of the Forsaken could hypothetically be done in a satisfying way (and I think it could), this approach really robs it of any good will. Whether they are just lying about it because they donāt want to engage with people criticizing how it sounds when summarized back to them or slapped it together at the last possible minute, this is a pretty deep problem when it comes to basic storytelling.
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It almost seems like the forsaken areā¦ stuck?
Like, they could be written convincingly as embracing their pre-Sylvanas heritage, reforming as the Nation of Lordaeron rather than āthe Forsakenā, welcoming living Lordaeronians home, restoring their old institutions of light-worship, the monarchy, and so forthā¦ but if they did that they have no reason to remain in the Horde. Calia has no reason whatsoever to resent the Alliance, and would probably find followers among the living descendants of Lordaeronāthe Alliance, after all, tolerates free-willed undead from the Ebon Blade, just not undead loyal to Sylvanas. So this cannot happen, since the factions are non-negotiable as far as the devs are concerned.
But other than that, I donāt see where they can go. They canāt remain as they were, because the forsaken identity was completely tied up in a cult of personality around Sylvanas. And maybe unfortunately, weāve never had a plotline of pro-undeath anti-Sylvanas charactersāan alternative philosophy that would still form an identity around ābeing undead and not wanting to co-exist with living humansā that wasnāt tied up with Sylvanas. Characters like Voss or Calia are not characters that would actually want to continue the existence of the forsaken, because they donāt see undeath as a desirable thing, and I donāt see how you could make a plot out of forsaken re-identifying as Lordaeronians first, undead second without it seeming like they should be independent or join the Alliance.
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To be fair, theyād also have no reason to leave it.
The Horde stood by them when nobody else did. The majority of the Forsaken people took refuge within Orgrimmar. To leave the Horde then, even if the nation does change, would be a big spit in the face to their allies.
Additionally, the peace will hopefully hold now, soā¦ fingers crossed the Horde and Alliance can be coexisting political bodies, not enemies.
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Imagine if Calia used a minorly-altered Forsaken modelā¦ and, because of the rigging work that went into it, the customization option for player Forsaken to stand upright was unlocked as part of her introduction to the Horde.
I wonder if that would make her character any more popular? 
(On topic: I think Calia could be a great Forsaken character, but the story skipped over all the introduction and integration parts and went right for āhereās your new glorious leader, kthxbyeā, and now a lot of players wonāt accept her even if they might have done so if her character progressed into the role instead.)
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The biggest flaw with Calia as a leader is that sheās too reasonable.
With the way they appear to be going forward, WoW will be forced to operate under two completely irreconcilable ideas:
- Horde leadership should be filled by reasonable, mostly peaceful people who wonāt repeat the mistakes of the past,
- The faction conflict is central to the game, and the Cycle Of Hatred must therefore be maintained in perpetuity.
Those two ideas canāt coexist without someone being hit with the villain bat, and as much as a lot of Horde players like to giggle at the thought of being able to feel morally justified in their dislike of the Alliance, having to flip and go āWeāre Evil Nowā isnāt going to be fun for anyone involved.
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