But I’m an Orc who is a voice of reason and morality. I oppose the Horde being conquerors and illegally occupying territory that does not belong to them. I oppose tyrants like Sylvanas and want to defeat her and her loyalists in a civil war and I receive tons of hate for it. I just want to live in Durotar peacefully. Why do you want to kill me and burn down my home?
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You continually amaze me in how little effort you put into understand other posters views if they don’t parrot your own. If you paid even a small amount of attention you would notice that most people not wanting to ‘pay the consequences’ are the same people who never wanted this storyline to being with. ‘I don’t want to be the Alliance’s footstool’, doesn’t mean the same thing as ‘I love doing warcrimes’.
Or are you saying your eager to pay the ‘consequences’ for the evils of the Horde on your character? You would be ok with Saurfang getting executed for Warcrimes or the Horde becoming a vassal state under Alliance occupation?
Cause realistically that is what the Horde has earned itself at this point if we were talking even vaguely realistic conciquences to the narrative. This is the second time the Horde has done this to the Alliance in only a handful of years. There is literally no logical reason they should believe that the Horde can be trusted to run itself without heavy alliance control and oversight.
This is the point I think some people forget. it is the question that a Horde player can fairly ask. Why should I, as a Horde player, pay for this crap?
That isn’t a good question for horde characters to ask and I have even seen dev interviews recently where Ion was directly asked ‘why is it worth saving this horde?’ Erode peoples sense of emotional investment in the game and then feed them narrative that makes them feel shameful, guilty or punished and they might just say ‘you know what? WoW isn’t for me anymore.’
As I am playing other MMOs I am pretty startled by the amount of WoW refugees I have seen in other games recently. Some might come back to WoW. Some might not bother. All will probably look at WoW through the lens of the experiences in other games and be less likely to be forgiving of places WoW falls short. Either way it will almost certainly be a net loss to WoW.
The reality is for a healthy game we need both factions fairly treated and both playerbase’s reasonably happy. This is the problem with this whole narrative, at least from the story side of it. They have made making both sides happy difficult.
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Well Ion said something like this but I’m still find with faction conflict as being part of WoW but not central to it.
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Each day I regret less for having rid my computer of the weight of WoW.
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You will also notice I did not put a number on it. I see lots of Horde come to the forums asking for an honorable Horde and lamenting their desire for the noble savage. I have talked with Horde players in game who say similar. I have seen the discussion in general chat while on a Horde toon. I am willing to accept they are not lying, or at least most are not. Do I know the % of players that feel that way? No. Do I know that a lot do? Yes. Which is why I challenged his claim that it would be in general bad for the Horde players. The point I was making is he cannot make that claim. He can only claim his own feeling. Which I pointed out he could want what he wants.
I am suggesting that the Horde act in a way that recovers some of that moral standing.
And yes, losing material position is part of that. The larger story cannot have the Horde again gain ground after starting another war and be logically consistent. The Horde must be seen as at least starting to be honorable for there to be any kind of believable peace. The last war ended with the Horde going ‘It was all our warcheif’s fault, but we are going to go ahead and keep the lands he seized.’ That was an absolute stretch when it was the first time. This is the second time. If the Horde is to continue to exist in the story, there must be a reason the Alliance is willing to end the war. And that leaves only a couple options. The first is the Horde is really broken and cannot ever even think about challenging the Alliance again, which I think most would agree is not a good way to resolve things. Or the Horde shows itself willing to pay for what it did. Have it showing honor and regret and and effort to make amends. The Horde needs to show that it is really going to be honorable, something that was lacking after Garrosh.
There is also the very apparent problem of how the Alliance player has experienced the war. This is the second war that has the Horde spending time attacking the Alliance. This is the second time the Alliance has been treated to loses over and over. This is the second time any wins the Alliance gets have very clear moments the Horde gets to get their hits in to, while the reverse is not true. This is the second time the Horde has completely destroyed an Alliance city. For this to end as the Horde wins or stalemate where the Horde hurts the Alliance again is not in anyway fair to the Alliance player.
The Alliance player needs to experience a straight up win. And the Horde player needs to experience being honorable. The way I see it, the Horde losing the war, but actively going beyond just standing down by giving up grounds and helping to try and repair the damage does both.
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Have you not heard? Draenor is free.
This is not just a MoP retread, it is almost building up to a WoD ending.
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“LARGE portion” is what I was nitpicking. That implies a far more significant chunk of Horde players than personal anecdotes can ever account for.
I’m one of those people who pull for a noble savage-honorable Horde (basically, the Horde identity to be roughly similar to how it existed after WC3 and during Vanilla), but I think you’re misunderstanding the concept of honor as it relates to the Horde. Although, to be fair, it doesn’t seem like the team writing for the game have any inkling what “Horde honor” means at this point either. The people who are supposed to represent it in-game—Baine and Saurfang—fail utterly at doing so.
In a nutshell, the War of Thorns as a general concept was fine. There was a lot of horrific writing surrounding that as well, but the premise of striking first to secure an overwhelming military advantage was not outside the scope of what I think is justifiable from a Horde perspective. But Sylvanas really needs to be universally hated to satisfy where they want to take the story, so mustache-twirling, cackling, lightning, trees burn, the valleys drown in the tears of the fandom, etc.
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In the end, the Horde story has been so screwed up, that the usual “morally grey” faction story doesn’t work. In reality it would be the time to end the factions, or to recast them completely, but I don’t see Blizzard being willing to do that. Nor do I think they really appreciate the hole they have written themselves into.
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Now we just need to fit in a fanatically loyal Orc somewhere in the final raid, and we’ll be one step closer to Bingo.
Not without an epic threat we never get to follow up on we aren’t!
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Plus, the Alliance is canonically winning.
Again, I refer you to the location of the current raid.
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Really? Only a couple of options? Seems like a failure of imagination.
Here’s more options: the Horde is about to crush the Alliance but, after a change of leadership, forebears and agrees to status quo (I think this would suck for Alliance players, but since you don’t seem to mind options that would suck for Horde players, I’m just throwing it out there).
Or, the war becomes so exhausting that both sides grudgingly revert to status quo (I actually think this is exactly what will happen).
Or timey whimey shenanigans ensue and reset the whole thing.
Or one of myriad other possibilities.
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can we do this one and pretend bfa never existed
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I understand perfectly well and my comment doesn’t apply to every one.
That wasn’t what the other person suggested should happen unless I misread.
Yup, I’m definitely on the “both sides are just going to be SO wrecked by the end of BfA they cannot afford to assert authority over the other faction” camp. Revenge is a luxury after all … and its not always something everyone can afford sad to say.
That being said I’ve sort of fallen into the camp of just hoping for some functional things the Horde faction can get out of BfA moving into the next one. Stuff like Gazlowe and Mida leading the Bilgewater; Nathanos and Voss taking prominent positions within the Forsaken; Thrall maybe taking the Warchief slot (and then diluting the power of that position severely); Saurfang being the first old orc in history to realize a life of service and penance can be as honorable as dying in battle … etc.
Pretty much … foundation setup for the next expansion is what I want.
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That would be an utterly disgusting ending and 10 times worse than draenor is free, i was already preparing myself for a bad ending but jesus christ.
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That’s not really an ending. It’s just kicking the can another few expansions down the road.
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You’re essentially trying to split the difference between feeling penalized and doing acts of penance. And that’s a hair that won’t split.
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WoW. Even the patches are exactly following MoP’s storyline patches. Can Blizzard get even more pathetic?
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Is the saying of “Fool me once…” Already that old?
This is twice now the Horde has escalated things in a fever pitch. Twice now a city/capital has been utterly decimated. Even were the Alliance to reach such a state, trusting the Horde to not again just attack out of nowhere is negligent, foolish and just downright moronic. Best case scenario should be “We want absolutely nothing to do with you ever again. You even put one toe in our space and we gut you like a fish.”
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