As much as I would like this, Derek is apparently being sent to someone in particular that could prevent this. Hopefully he is able to take out someone in particular before itâs too late. Would help the story immensely imo.
Ok, but do you agree with the idea that someone has a right to immortal life at the expense of enslaving someone or not?
What reason did Sylvanas have to prioritize Eyir over the existence of her people?
His history is explained through multiple sources, and it never becomes an issue for anyone involved with him.
Sylvanas supported the recovery of the Aegis and primarily dealt with her mission to capture Eyir personally. Meanwhile Genn kind of sabotaged those efforts by destroying most of the Forsakenâs forces.
If youâre talking about how taking Eyir threatened Odynâs support in the war - His method of solving literally every dispute is to throw people into a trial and if they win theyâre worthy. Most likely if Sylvanas had succeeded heâd just have the Horde champion prove their valor yet again.
I didnât say the writers considered his situation. However, thatâs still the story they wrote, and in this story Genn agreed to peace back in MoP.
That is, in fact, the exact opposite of the argument I made there. Given the issue I was talking about was a case of double standards in how Odyn gets no flack from anyone for his actions in enslaving the Valâkyr while simultaneously Sylvanas gets tons of criticism for attempting to capture Eyir and trying to brainwash Derek, Iâd go as far as to say that your statement is projection.
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Youâre still not answering what is a fairly unloaded question. Do you or do you not agree?
A very vague statement that doesnât give much indication as to the faction leaders actual knowledge.
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Yeah originally I was pretty sure this was 100% because it frames Baine, getting him out of Sylvanasâ hair, and also because Katherine had a target on her back the size of Rastakhan himself.
But then:
So⌠I guess the alliance will potentially prevent an obvious trap? Which is great I guess but stories have to have payoff whether they work or not and this just leaves the hordeâs PC actions as being worthless and potentially removes Baine (which some players Iâm sure would love since heâs already such a polarizing character) But still, it just feels hollow.
Now Iâll admit my alliance muse is getting a heavy dose of schadenfreude as it remembers how much it sucked to be alliance back in Cata but no one should have to feel brushed aside in a game where theyâre the main character.
Guess weâll see where this goes. I still expect Derek to murder his mom but eh.
Yes, i feel like things are going too well for the alliance war effort or at least, kultirans.
we are going to lose mama proudmoore u.u
You know⌠last time Jaina lost people she loved in a senseless tragedy she almost nuked a city.
Why does Sylvanas think that the Derek plot is worth the risk?
Seriously.
Why?
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Youâre still not answering what is a fairly unloaded question. Do you or do you not agree?
And youâre not answering my question. Why should Sylvanas prioritize Eyir over the existence of her people? She has a responsibility to the future of the Forsaken. What obligation does she have to Eyir?
The player character certainly knew. Ignoring the issue of whether or not information the PC has is ever passed along, they still follow what Odyn says regardless of that knowledge, doubly so in the case of the Warrior PC.
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if the target is jaina it kinda makes sense, i guess but i still think that she is wasting too much time and effort on him.
if jaina dies, either katherine, tandreed or even lucille will take her place and i fail to see how that will be enough to win the war if the cost is basically creating a civil war in the horde.
now if katherine dies it would be the equivalent to hit with a golf club a wasp nest. unless jaina reeeeeally changed and will not let revenge blind her.
but most likely that would result in more senseless murder in return.
probably resulting in a macdonals in mulgore,hmm i am hungry now.
Or the whole âDerekâ plot was just a red herring to get Baine to implicate himself in treason. Jaina and her loved ones may have never been the real target and just a means to an end.
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do you think that getting rid of potential traitors worth the risk of a new civil war?
because that is basically what is about to happen.
I will gladly answer your question if you agree to answer mine. Given I asked first and Iâve asked four times now.
I think she shouldnât enslave Eyir because I donât think pursuing heedless self-interest for oneâs group at the expense of others to lead to good outcomes. That the ends, in this case, do not justify the means. And that Sylvanas, as someone who disagreed with being enslaved for Arthasâ retconned greater good should probably empathize.
Which still says little to nothing about what the faction leaders know. Thereâs not much question of the player character as a murder hobo.
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If the point is to consolidate power to eventually abandon those parts of the horde that would have never willingly obey Sylvanas to begin with, then yes.
If sylvanas sees war with the alliance as inevitable, then she probably sees another Horde Civil War as inevitable. After all, when Garrosh started his rule as Warchief he was incredibly popular, not just among the Orcs but among the Trolls and Tauren as well⌠At least up until the Twilightâs Hammer sabotaged that meeting of druids. Sylvanas has never been as loved as Thrall or Garrosh.
Eliminating those most likely to lead a coup against her early on is just good strategy. The only failure thus far is that the Alliance didnât kill Saurfang like she expected them to.
More likely that he agreed to peace against his own will, considering the lack of power or influence he had after systematically losing his nation did not allow for him to have a say in the matter. Such is pretty evident during Garroshâs trial when he makes it clear he hasnât forgiven Sylvanas and considers the trial a farce for not having her there along with Garrosh. (Something he isnât completely wrong for feeling either, considering the clown world the writers have turned Azeroth into.)
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I donât think she should enslave Eyir either, but It doesnât bother me that she tried. If only because if Eyirâs next words after Sylvanas said âSubmit!â were âum⌠okâ (in a g rated tone) then, it wouldnât really matter so much. The Vrykul use violent means against each other, and they respect strength and wit.
Also thereâs the matter of Sylvanas and Helya, which the writers conveniently left out of the story. Sylvanas is more likely to empathize with Helya. Eyir is the servant of Odyn, who is basically the Lich King to Helya. He and his forces, including Eyir, are fair game to her. I donât neccesarily have a problem with Sylvanas taking sides in their conflict, because Odyn would ultimately have to give the Aegis of Aggrimar to someone, or else he would be destroyed by the Legion as well. But in this case, Eyir would be like a captured enemy than a victimized slave.
I mean, chances are well find out that Helya and Sylvanas want to eat the old gods and enslave the world together, but thereâs more to find out still.
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He actually wanted to put the entire Horde leadership on trial.
Not just Sylvanas.
This is not the opinion of a man who agreed to peaceful relations with the Horde.
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Personally I think doing the Naga in act three is a massive mistake. This expansion already feels incredibly MoP with opening act being a horrible warcrime, followed by alliance winning without having to be dirty, and then someone else shows up and we forget and forgive literally everything that happened before because âreasonsâ.
If I was to be handed this mess, Iâd actually advocate for doubling down on the faction war and really push it. Iâd have the horde make enough of a comeback that the alliance snaps and over-reacts. The Alliance needs to commit a warcrime be it on purpose or a plan works too well.
I would bring Yrel and her Lightforged Borg into the fray and Iâd have the alliance starting to be more and more twisted scarlet crusade style until itâs revealed that maybe something really is wrong with azerite and only then have the alliance implode enough that Sylvanas raids and takes Stormwind.
I would have the next expansion pack be the horde dealing with âWe won, Sylvanas did it?!â And have them figure out what to do with the rest of the alliance and slowly realize winning the survival war didnât improve things internally. Meanwhile the alliance, now held up in Ironforge are dealing with the aftermath of having lost control/become monsters for a bit that they also need to reorganize and figure out how to get Stormwind back.
All the while the naga are actively doing little incursions and suddenly destroy countless horde and alliance towns as the black empire rises and both sides have to come back from weakened positions.
I dunno, I rushed that, I had better thoughts but I lost them mid rant heh.
Point is, this expansion is going to be too fast at this rate with no room for either side to learn antying again.
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The Battlelord (i.e. the warrior player) and the Valarjar were Odynâs method of fighting the war. Every mission on the Warriorâs mission table and the Warrior Order Campaign were his methods of fighting the war.
Steal Odynâs valâkyr and you outright remove an entire army from the struggle against the Legion.
Moreover the only part she did by herself was securing the means to enslave Eyir from Helya - and it made sense that sheâd do that alone because it wouldnât look good for her to openly collude with the leader of the kvaldir that were actively trying to kill the champions of Azeroth.
After she got the lantern, the next time she appeared was back at the head of the Forsaken forces in Stromheim besieging Eyirâs temple in Skold-ashil, having them attack one of the few vrykul strongholds that hadnât defected to the Legion.
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That doesnât answer my question as to why Sylvanas should prioritize Eyir over the Forsaken or to what obligation she has to Eyir. You stated an idea that pursuing self-interest at the expense of others doesnât lead to good outcomes and that the ends donât justify the means, but you didnât say why any of that should be the case in this situation.
I think at a base level morality is dictated by self-interest and that moral quandaries of what is good and bad or right and wrong in any sort of blanket sense are generally meaningless.
Sylvanas was freed long before Arthas became the Lich King and made that his motivation.
So? Genn capitulating to peace against his judgement doesnât change the fact that he still signed on. If someone signs a contract that they donât like, are they justified to back out and backstab the other party at a later date?
Stealing one Valâkyr doesnât make the rest disappear or destroy Odynâs army. On the contrary, employing Eyirâs power in a more proactive way might have aided the effort.
You say âthe only partâ, but that could only have entailed doing quite a bit on her own. Finding out who Helya was, how to get into Helheim and then actually doing so, what Valâkyr should be targeted and where she was, there was more than one step involved.
The Vrykul there were hostile to begin with.
When the person being backstabbed is Sylvanas then yes.
The Alliance was pretty certain the Horde betrayed them. It was only later through the rogue class hall that the truth was revealed but timelinewise Genn could have already attacked Sylvanas for her supposed treachery.