Yeah my point is if he died in Darkshore then the Alliance would have been happier and Horde players would not have to deal with that Douchnozzles voice for the next couple of WQ patches.
Would have been a win for everyone but after so long didn’t feel right killing him in the middle of nowhere chilling at his house of all places. Its weird and so underwhelming.
I mean Tyrande could have killed all the Valkries and Nathanos and nothing would be different today for shadowlands.
Yeah, it’s just another leaflet to add onto the pile of BFA’s annoyances. Personally he was just a “sometimes food” character and felt there was just too much of him. His sour attitude, coupled with BFA’s story, with the amount of focus he got just to throw him away anyway felt like yet another waste of time and effort.
Eh, I dunno how to feel about this. I didn’t really like being around him myself, but it also feels hella awkward to try to think of having (what feels to me) one of the faction’s few recurring characters being killed off as if that’s supposed to be a favor for my sake.
Then again, Saurfang used to be one of my favorites, and I was all too happy to see him smoked if just to not see him anymore, so I was probably going to be miserable no matter what happened. I just figure Blizzard wouldn’t have wanted to comb through the WQs and reassign them to other NPCs.
Come up with a reason to object to it that doesn’t involve attempting to invalidate the entire human narrative of the RTS games.
More like if Cataclysm wasn’t a rushed disaster but yes, I think the Void Elves kind of get by a little better because they’re dark and spooky but not too rough-looking to stick out too poorly among the Alliance.
And if you really think about it deeper, that’s probably why they became a thing in the first place because everything about them is much closer to the classic WC3 Blood Mage concept than the current Blood Elves, a cool dark spellcaster concept is just going to fit a faction that’s predominantly more magical themed than feral werewolf people.
I’m genuinely trying to figure out how the reclamation of two dead kingdoms, with two dead lines, with any semblance of their prior government, leadership, or infrastructure raised to the ground serves to do anything … but serve as an empty status symbol. To hide the shame of one of humanities greatest mistakes, and rebuild a rather gilded sense of pride. In short, its about sweeping all that ugly that was Arthas under a rug.
Humanity has begun to seriously rebuild itself, being on the cusp of reclaiming and rebuilding 5 of 7 Human Kingdoms. With the last 2 (Alterac and Lordaeron) being SUPER arbitrary, due to just how torn up root-and-stem they actually are. So the “Human Narrative” is being acted upon. You’re issue and pet-peeve is that that their glory is just being centered and built upon Humanities most Southern Kingdom; rather than its Northernmost one.
EDIT: And before you bring in that whole “well, Terenas rebuilt SW” shtick, I seem to recall seeing you even mention that he was only open to doing that because the Royal Line of SW had not been severed. Thus, a Government system in some form could be built up with relative expediency. Not so with Lord or Alterac.
For one thing, it’s not just about Arthas, it’s also about characters like Terenas and Uther, both of whom are revered by the Alliance and who were both murdered and their realms desecrated while they were trying to defend it. That in itself provides a sense of honor and duty that motivates the re-establishment of Lordaeron.
Genn straight up acknowledges this in the Battle for Lordaeron. “You desecrate that throne with your filth.” (He also has some lines in HotS when he kills Arthas or Sylvanas asking Terenas to let it be his atonement)
It’s not about burying what happened with Arthas. The Alliance is in fact quite frank and open about what happened with Arthas, and it provides all the more motivation to ensure that he does not win. Ignoring Lordaeron and leaving it to rot is Arthas winning.
That’s an oversimplification of what I meant. Terenas committed to the reclamation and restoration of Stormwind because he saw it as the right thing to do, and the Menethils and Wrynn’s have a long-established close friendship among the Seven Kingdoms. Even had the Wrynn dynasty not survived, he absolutely would have sought to reclaim and rebuild Stormwind, even if he didn’t know who would be in charge.
I brought this up in the other thread in order to emphasize just how thorough the destruction of Stormwind and its citizens was in the First War, and how that wasn’t an obstacle to the Alliance reclaiming and rebuilding it, and how most of its current population is likely from Lordaeron, making the Wrynn dynasty one of the only points of continuity between Stormwind’s pre-First War culture and it’s post-Second War culture.
That’s also true. If they had a better treatment in CATA it would have fixed a lot. But judging how the Alliance portrays certain races i still feel like they’d be in a similar boat at least in their representation. Still feeling more human than Worgen.
Yeah that’s one of the reasons i find the Void Elves more interesting as the Alliance’s “dark” race. And they fit the classic line up of the faction. Especially with their more normal customizations they just got. They fit perfectly with Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes while maintaining that “Dark Spellcaster” theme.
No, the harbor explosion was only needed to equalize you with the worgen. But since Gallywix was the goblins’ main problem, Bilgewater Harbor could be ignored.
And if you blow up the harbor and kill Greymane, then you need to present it as an irreparable loss for the goblins, since Greymane is so important for the worgen, after his death “the era of the worgen will end, the time of the citizens of Gilneas will come”, that is, ordinary people.
You have options on how to expose the loss of the city to a race that does not really value its own and someone else’s life and does not value its history, infinitely important, the end after which you can live, but it will not be you. Hmm … They will lose the title of a separate Cartel, becoming part of another, in which they will be little better than slaves? And this will be emphasized in every possible way.
This is going to happen anyway with how Blizzard literally settup the Worgen curse; and how both Genn and Crowley refuse to pass on said curse to future generations. And how since the curse literally transforms your eternal soul, some enhanced strength and longevity does not make up for the absurd level of downsides its supposed to have. So no one without sufficient reason would want to willingly accept a CURSE like that; and it can’t be passed down through birth. So Blizz has created a problem where the only reason why these people in this world would continue to propogate the curse, is because the Players think its cool. So … y’know.
Also, a lot of your arguments tend to just come off as you really finding no value in what few things the Bilgewater still have (One Zone, One City, One Half-Developed Lead), and thus you’re trying to arbitrarily equalize them with the Worgen … who’s “stuff” you clearly value far more. Which is a SUPER weird discussion to keep bringing this back to, since I have repeatedly stated I feel bad that the Worgen have not gotten their Cata resolution they’re due to have (but I feel lucky that Blizz somehow managed to resolve ours)? Shouldn’t the argument be made instead that we should just give the Worgen Gilneas back already (since the only thing preventing them from having it after BfA is Blizz’s own laziness) … rather than what few things the Bilgewater have away?
Which, if you ask me, was a narrative mistake. But too late to retcon.
Only hope is to walk it back.
Dude, the entire Human narrative of the RTS was “survive Orcs”, “win against Orcs and persecute them into their original backyard” and finally “let ourselves be killed by zombie master cause we didn´t pay attention and were too busy thinkking about real politiks!!”… if you see, the Human story followed a path between all the three RTS games: they got invaded, then they won against the invaders and finally they became complacent, started once again with the inner real politiks mumbo jumbo (which caused the separation of several kingdoms), ignored Medivh and got their own “valiant” Terenas getting killed in his own throne room at the hands of his son.
Nothing about WC3 was about “rebuilding muh Human kingdom” it was about “run for your lives cause zombie apocalypse is happening naow!!”… no more and no less.
Literally Anduin making stupid remarks in regards to the Alliance´s supposed responsability regarding Arthas does not mean this was true or is true nowadays. Simply put it, the “sin” of the Alliance in WC3 was to feel so ridiculously overconfident they literally got played hard by Mal´ganis et al becasue they were too busy arguing over taxes instead of paying attention to the zombie cult being cooked in their own backyard. Arthas already “won” because his goals regarding Lordaeron were achieved in the RTS… he indeed “succeeded” Terenas back then. And went a step further making the biggest portion of his “subjects” just like he “wanted them” A.K.A. mindcontrolled zombies.
Getting back a toxic wasteland does NOT erase the fact the Alliance failed to heed in the warnings of Medivh and anticipate the impact Kel´Thuzad´s little cult will have on their own nation. Ergo, “recovering” Lordaeron is INDEED a move done to “hide” the actual faults of the faction in WC3 narrative: pride, ignorance and lack of diligence to act, period.
Forsaken have the same issue. Especially with us killing the last of the Val’kyr after Sylvanas had already taken them with her any way.
I feel like I need a macro that plays Bolvar’s dialogue in the Wrathgate cinematic every time someone tries to claim that Lordaeron is irrelevant to the human/Alliance narrative
The forsaken at least have a potential storyline benefit of being able to offer people second chances if they ACTUALLY went with the “people only get consensually raised” like I think they originally tried to claim back in Cataclysm (provides they find a valkyrless way). And in the short term, it probably “helped” that they were on the opposite faction from humans. Worgen don’t get that excuse outside of a faction war, and have no reason to go around biting their comrades against their will.
This was always an extremely irritating and insulting premise because it implied (and still does imply) that there are legions of Alliance members itching for the chance to “consensually” defect to the Horde.
Back when we didn’t know as much about how undeath works this was extraordinarily toxic to the Alliance as a faction in terms of pride. Heck, it still is because Blizzard is still adhering to the notion of “if you’re undead you go Horde no matter your background”
At least you still have death knights as an option, unless you’re really desperate for that rotting look.
Pretty much. Which leaves the only real way for these two groups to continue is sort of just nursing back to sanity the pools of cursed that already exist. I feel like the Forsaken have a bit more of a pool to work with, but as the saying goes “Population Numbers do not matter in WoW”.
I make a point of making my DK’s as ugly as possible yes.
Honestly I don’t really understand why the Horde is okay with this either. Do you really think that the Horde gains narrative relevance by spreading a disease that simply co-opts the history and identity of others? For pretty much the entirety of the Eastern Horde to consist of poached Alliance stuff?
I originally didn’t like it either, but a watered-down, ACTUALLY consensual version of communing with the dead and giving them the chance to decide for themselves if they want to come back? Why not?
It’s not like the characters have to actually exist in the story alliance-side before creating them.
There will always be more world ending threats beyond the Horde that could justify more Humans wanting to become Worgen. Or even just old age, if Genn’s any indication.