It’s not out of context–calling them imperialistic is saying they expanded their influence by means of military force. There may be a negative connotation in the modern parlance surrounding the term, but it still is what it is. It applies to the Kaldorei Empire the same way it applies to the founding of the Black Empire, the conquest of Draenor, or the founding of Arathor. It’s important to disassociate oneself from the inherent biases we have regarding terms like imperialism, because, whether you like it or not, those terms exist to describe explicit power structures that are clearly exhibited in fantasy as much as they are in real life.
1 Like
No, it does not. The statement was to bring to light the partiality of the users usage of the word imperialism. It is constantly bandied about on these forums to denegrate the elven empire and present it as some monster aggressor while failing to acknowledge that every other empire in the game is imperialistic.
Context.
Yes; the Horde has acted in it’s self-interest in ways that can be defined as imperialistic or colonial. It’s not exclusive to the night elves, orcs, Horde, or Alliance. Reacting hostilely to the accurate use of terminology when it paints your preferred race or faction in a negative light is a form of bias. Which is fine, but it’s important to disassociate yourself from it if you want to have an objective discussion about the geopolitics of the fictional world.
3 Likes
It is out of context when it is used over and over on these forums in an attempt to impartially define the elven empire as an aggressive, expansionist empire and portray others as innocent bystanders.
Objective context is what I seek to clarify. If a person is going to toss the word imperialist about in a one sided manner to object to elven aggression then it is being used out of context. As was the case with its original usage in this conversation.
What others have said is irrelevant. Denying that the night elf empire was imperialistic is factually incorrect. You don’t need the context of other conversations in this forum to reach that conclusion. Other polities in the game have been imperialistic too and it’s important to recognize both. If you say that the night elf empire isn’t imperialistic, then you justify the standard to say that other polities aren’t either. The reality is that both are. If you agree, then you shouldn’t be making arguments in an attempt to deflect criticism against the night elf empire with whataboutisms.
3 Likes
You expected wrong.
lol.
Nope, you do not get to drag in drama from your personal Discord server and use that as an excuse to attack unrelated people who happen to be one of the other millions of people who also play Horde characters. You do realize that plenty of people play both sides, even if they favor one faction, right? I’ve been playing Vandraeda since the beginning of Legion and she’s the first character I ever made, but because I haven’t switched mains to one of my two level 60 Alliance alts, you assume that I agree with people who are harassing you on a completely separate forum of discussion. That isn’t logical. Being a Horde main doesn’t make me fascist, just like being a Blood Elf main doesn’t mean I support military autocrats in real life, and just like having a level 60 Worgen alt doesn’t make me a monarchist. This game is make believe. Even if someone enjoys playing a villainous character in game, that doesn’t mean that they are a terrible person in real life. Your problem isn’t with Horde players, it’s with people being terrible.
You like to talk about how much you value data. What percentage of Horde players have attacked your personal Discord server? What’s your sample size? Where’s your data showing that you can reasonably apply conclusions based on the statistics of your server to the whole player base? Right now, all I see is you using a ton of anecdotal evidence from your private forum to support your claim so that you can broadcast your speculation about what strangers believe.
Agreed. Warcraft is full of governments with imperialistic tendencies, both historical and current, not to mention all sorts of other flaws, because much like real life, they are made up of flawed, self-interested people. It’s part of what makes the setting interesting and drives a lot of the conflict that puts the “war” in “Warcraft,” for good or ill. I personally don’t think it’s especially useful to argue about the moral implications of one Warcraft government versus another unless actually discussing the individuals in charge of said government or how that relates to the people being governed, but that’s just me.
7 Likes
the aggressive, and openly hostile, troll nations. Small, separate conflicts subsequently broke out between the two races, but the trolls were consistently unable to stand against the kaldorei mastery of the arcane and were routed as a result. Undisturbed by the trolls’ rabid battle lust, and having no desire to control their lands, Queen Azshara ultimately negotiated a deal with the Zandalar tribe of trolls, the unifying force between all the tribes. In return for a halt to all troll incursions and hostilities against kaldorei territory, the trolls would — by Azshara’s grace — be allowed to remain in possession of their sacred Zandalar Mountain, south of the Well of Eternity. This humiliating agreement which the trolls had no choice but to acquiesce to led to great resentment of night elves (and elves in general) among the troll race
Jesus wept.
8 Likes
Colonialism, too.
As I’ve said before - the criticism lands if you end up subscribing to the ideology being criticized - but to make this matter clear…
I make it a habit to try to correct people on my side when I feel that they’re going too far. That tendency is something that my critics, usually on their way to defending why the Horde should be able to lock in all kinds of gains or why I need to shut up about the things I’m concerned about, like to turn on me, while ignoring the absolute worst that comes from their side unless it comes specifically from Erevien.
If Horde fans and their sympathizers want to dogpile me because I won’t immediately ban people on the basis of isolated statements that were pushed back on from over a year ago, or because I thought that I could deradicalize a very troubled individual (by the way, no, there’s no way in hell that Shernish is Shipper. Shipper was a moderation nightmare that I still occasionally receive death threats from - he bothers friends of mine whenever he finds the occasion), then I am going to reply in kind with respect to people who run around unironically promoting an ideology that meets ten of the fourteen characteristics laid out by Uberto Eco’s Ur Fascism, and which due to writer malfeasance, can be credibly compared to some of the worst of the subject matter - who almost never get called out.
The ruins in Azshara were a part of zin 'Azshari. Thats the reason for the speculation…
You have not once rebuked any of the posters who regularly call for the Horde to have been genocided previously or for the Horde to be shipped off to Northrend like a giant reservation or otherwise re-enslaved (or both).
Not in this thread, not in any of the other threads.
The most I’ve seen you do is push back against the notion the Night Elf Empire wasn’t Imperialistic, which simply serves to preserve your favorite race’s narrative integrity.
That’s it.
Oh and you insist Garithos was part of the Alliance and thus his racism is part of the Alliance narrative, that too.
7 Likes
Ugh, one more week before we deal with all of these and hopefully get some damn finality.
1 Like
In the meantime, it’s more about private petty wars and sensitivities, less about the story.
Nope, you started throwing around accusations at specific posters, including people not on your Discord, as well as painting the entire Horde player base as fascist-leaning by default unless affirmatively proven otherwise, then added “Whether you identify with that ideology specifically is up to you” as afterthought, and then you have the gall to act like anyone offended by your accusation is being unreasonable. That’s absurd.
You know why I don’t go around personally arguing with every Horde avatar I disagree with on the forums, in order to correct “my side”? It’s because 1) I don’t have time for that, 2) Even if I did have time for that, I don’t care to dig through every single topic on these forums and fact-check every single post, and 3) Just because they’re posting with a Horde avatar does not mean that they are on my side. I only accept responsibility for what I am willing to post under my own avatar, which is part of why I consistently only post under Vandraeda. I do my best to interact with other posters here solely on the basis of what they themselves post, and in exchange I expect the same courtesy. It is not my responsibility, as someone who has no connections to Blizzard Entertainment beyond playing their games, to answer for Blizzard’s decisions in where they’ve taken the Horde, or to moderate strangers’ behavior because they happen to use a Horde avatar when they post.
Again, your problem isn’t with Horde players, it’s with the specific people harassing you on your private Discord server. Just because some of your difficulties there are spilling over into the Story Forum does not mean that everyone else here wants to be involved. You ignored my questions. Where’s your evidence that what happens on your private Discord is representative of the entire Horde player base? Your private Discord nightmares (which, by the way, I have no knowledge of aside from what has been posted here, since I am not on Discord in any way, shape, or form) are no excuse to attack uninvolved strangers in a different forum of discussion. You are of course welcome to criticize someone for being a fascist when they’re actually being one, but that isn’t what you’ve done here. Also, allow me to introduce you to this concept called “Don’t feed the trolls.” Sometimes the best thing to do if someone’s spouting hatred is to report the post and move on, as engaging, even to call the poster out, only encourages them and keeps the thread visible.
That reminds me of something I’ve been wondering, where was N’Zoth’s prison supposed to be located in relation to the Well of Eternity? The Well of Eternity was where Y’Shaarj had been before he was killed by the Titans, so was N’Zoth immediately adjacent to him? Or is his ability to contact Azshara during the Sundering the result of him spreading his influence into the area over time?
1 Like
Probably, this music is suitable for the transition from a regular discussion to a talk-show.
Nah sounds pretty accurate to be honest.
This dude seems to throw the racism shtick to whatever he doesn’t like and one of the things he pushes for is for the game to make one faction more racist because it tickles his fancy.
Tbh the Alliance needs an evil to match Teldrassil. Something that’s inexcusable, fully, wholly wrong. Something its players can’t explain away. Racism would do it.
3 Likes
Lol aren’t you the guy that is constantly complaining about the Night Elves and Alliance got enough wins and they shouldn’t get anything more?
What possible evil would you want the Alliance to commit to make ya happy? Yall are still mad about the purge. 