Your “better” example doesn’t quite fit. The water elemental tidal wave was slow moving. Perhaps comparable to Superman in terms of strength Thrall requires to stop the wave, but not in terms of Thrall needing to be faster than a speeding bullet.
Alynsa brought up an actually better example:
Here I would bring up the idea of a fuse on an old timey bomb. Yes, Jaina lit the fuse, but the fuse was long, and Thrall came and stomped it out. There was then some wrestling between Thrall and Jaina over trying to relight the fuse or keep it extinguished, but ultimately Thrall and Kalec were able to talk Jaina down from using the bomb on Orgrimmar at all. And Jaina showed remorse for even considering having set up the bomb in her erratic state.
Sylvanas lit the fuse on her bomb, a fuse she set too short for anyone to be able to stop, and then desecrated the dead afterwards on top of that, and showed no signs of regret, needing a version of her past self to carry the guilt for her.
She didn’t desecrate the dead personally, nathanos raised the night elf dark rangers and zooval and his minions turned probably a decent portion of the souls into armor and weapons. She’s guilty by association on that account
Everything else she’s definitely guilty of personally doing though
Did she not order Nathanos and the Val’kyr there to raise the Night Elves? Or did Nathanos and the Val’kyr do that on their own?
I was always under the impression she ordered them to do it. That would not be Guilt by Association if she was issuing the orders to do so.
Also did the Val’kyr have free will? I was also under the impression they were bound mystically to do as Sylvanas ordered. It seems questionable how much agency the Val’kyr possess.
Maybe i don’t remember it well, but Nathanos implied at Darkshore that Sylvanas was looking specifically for someone (aka Delaryn)
For Jaina, remember that she targeted only Orgrimmar and its close surrounding.
With Tel Drassil that was a country with Darnassus and its villages, it’s like Sylvanas burned Orgrimmar, the entirety of Durotar and the sen’jin islands.
Not quiet the same scale.
Again, Jaina can’t hold a candle against Sylvanas in terms of evil intents and body count even by giving orders.
True, Danuser tried to convince us (quiet stupidly) that was not a case of “all the good on one side and the evil on another side”.
If it was the case, then the presentation should have been different because the cinematic only shown “good Ranger general vs evil Banshee” implying that Sylvanas was completely evil until now.
We can add that with this narrative, she wasn’t the real Sylvanas during the entirety of WoW, i don’t think that the fans of the character appreciate to see this.
I don’t know how her story will unfold, but it will probably be unsatisfying for nearly everyone.
It will be disturbingly appropriate if the last bit that has stayed encrypted pulls off the same reaction that hiding who burned Teldrassil did when Warbringers: Sylvanas finally released.
I have three vacations coming up in the next couple of months. Hopefully it falls on one of them and I can return to the smoldering ruins feeling fully relaxed.
Nathanos Blightcaller says: There is one more asset to acquire. One who resisted... and failed. The Dark Lady was very... specific in her wishes.
And not only did Sylvanas know that she was sending souls to the Maw, once Sylvanas went to join Zovaal she was in Torghast with him the whole time while operations were running.
Looking back, I think Sylvanas’ story has been a crazy mess because it got pulled between two extremes.
It was a tug of war between Afrasiabi - who wanted to run Sylvans into the ground, and Danuser - who wanted to raise Sylvanas so high, there was a strong chance she’d reach Mary Sue-dom.
I think we’re using the words “action” and “outcome” differently.
My intended usage is to say the action taken was lighting Teldrassil on fire. The outcome was the death of thousands of Night Elves (well, somewhere between 1 and 1 billion, since it’s WoW, but the point remains). The action taken was launching a wave of water elementals to drown everyone in Orgrimmar. The outcome was that Thrall blocked it (and then she tried to kill him while still pushing the wave). The outcome is what transpired due to the action.
If someone plants a nuclear bomb in a city and Jack Bauer saves the day, the action was still to plant the nuclear bomb. In your word use (though not my preferred), the intention was to murder everyone in said city. The outcome? Nobody died. Jack Bauer saved the day.
In my view, the actions of said bomber are no less evil because of Jack Bauer intervening. Some disagree and that’s fine, it’s just my view. I believe that the action of planting the nuclear bomb is just as evil regardless of whether Jack Bauer saves the day or not.
//Just as a comment, I try to avoid the word use of intention in this context because of the cases where intention and action aren’t really feasible. Someone could intend to destroy Earth by digging to the core of the world with a shovel. The intention is pretty evil, but the action? Not very realistic to achieve the goal, probably a mental health issue.
No, I’m not. Sylvanas’ actions are more evil (in sum). The act of burning Teldrassil though isn’t “hardly comparable” to the act of trying to drown Orgrimmar and I think that as you go down the rabbit hole of caveats it doesn’t escape the fact that comparisons can be made. That’s just my belief.
In my view? Yes, they can be equivalent, depending on a number of factors.
No they aren’t irrelevant, but they do have a relationship to the action taken. A battered wife is defending herself, while a serial killer isn’t. Killing an entire city for one person is evil, but killing one person to stop a them from killing others? Absolutely different. A spouse murdering their partner in a moment of rage when caught cheating is very different than said spouse planning for a week and then blowing up their partners entire office suite.
Yes, to me, intentions do matter. Dropping a gun and having it accidentally go off and kill someone is very different than walking behind someone and shooting them in the skull.
I’m not sure I understand the question. If you are asking, “Does it matter how many individuals are targeted by an action?” then no, numbers are not irrelevant. Shooting one person in the head vs blowing up an entire city is very different. If you’re asking, “Does it matter how many individuals are killed (for example) by an action?” then yes, numbers are irrelevant (to me). If Sylvanas had burnt Teldrassil to the ground, whilst full of civilians, but Elune put a shield around them and nobody died, her actions would still be as evil (in my view). The fact that folks escaped due to heroic effects is nice for Night Elves as a whole, but it doesn’t make the action less evil.
I’m not sure I follow this question. Actual crimes are relevant. If this is aimed at asking whether it matters whether an action was successful in the intended goal, I’d say no, with a varying amount of qualification about whether the action was a legitimate attempt.
As a hypothetical thought experiment:
Three exact same situations with the same people, a serial killer at point blank range shooting toward an innocent victim in the same location.
Scenario 1 - Victim is shot and is rushed to the emergency room where a surgeon tries valiantly but fails to save the victim’s life.
Scenario 2 - Victim is shot and said surgeon manages to save the victim.
Scenario 3 - Superman dives in front of the bullet and stops the victim from being hit.
I don’t see the shooter as being any less evil in any scenario.
I guess to represent my comment about intention vs action and realism - in some alternate version, the person trying to kill the victim throws a paper cup worth of water in their face, expecting them to die.
I do believe circumstances matter, but only to an extent. I mentioned I give circumstances a flat-rate value. From what I’ve seen, I would say that it’s my opinion (others will disagree clearly) that Sylvanas’ circumstances have been far worse (in sum) than Jaina’s. I just don’t think either really rises to the value required to significantly diminish the evil they undertook. I’m not ignoring the loss of Theramore, or Ronin, just as I’m not ignoring everything Sylvanas has gone through. But if the circumstances are, at best, a net wash and, at worst, in favor of Sylvanas, there doesn’t seem to be much value in exploring it further. They both have circumstances (and honestly the whole “who had it worse?” train of thought becomes another rabbit hole that can be used to justify any manner of actions).
If your argument is that Jaina did it “in the heat of the moment,” and that gives her some different mitigating circumstances, then I disagree because I don’t think it qualifies. I think by going to the Alliance, then Dalaran, then studying how to use the Focusing Iris, then finally acting, she’s outside the timeframe that fits that description, but folks might (reasonably) disagree on that.
If your argument is that Jaina was trying to kill Garrosh to stop a war and therefore willing to wipe out an entire city, then I still think her action is evil. Following that thought process though, Sylvanas is apparently trying to rewrite reality into a system that is just (her words) and willing to kill however many it takes to do so (her actions). I still think her actions are evil, but it’s the same argument.
I think both actions are evil, regardless of the “ends justify the means” rationale being used. I don’t buy into their arguments, and personally, from the narrative I see them both as rationalizing their desired behavior as being for the greater good (but that’s purely interpretation and readers/watchers may/do disagree).
You definitely hit the nail on the head.
I’m not sure that I believe I’ve seen folks go so far as the last statement, but it gave me pause because it would seem to be the logical extension. I’ll probably ponder the logic of it some more. It’s clearly an extreme extension, but it has interesting implications.
Personally, morally, I don’t believe us saving souls from the Maw somehow mitigates the actions taken that sent them there, or us thwarting an evil action somehow makes the perpetrator less evil. I understand that some folks are more willing to separate “Attempted Genocide” vs “Actual Genocide” but I don’t see that demarcation as being significant and definitely doesn’t make them hardly comparable.
Orgrimmar is a major military base.
At the time of Jaina’s attack it contained the following:
warlord responsible for the death of her kingdom.
the army that helped the warlord
her own surviving people that were being actively tortured by the Orgrimmar residents and soldiers.
Horde civilians.
All these people are directly or by association related to what happened to her and her people.
Why is this equivalent to Sylvanas and Teldrassil?
They didn’t turn her undead… or break the machine of death. Does context not matter?
How much responsibility does Garrosh and the Horde have by going back to orgrimmar and making that city a target?
At what point did anyone become aware of Theramore Survivors being held in Org and being tortured?
Was that even a thing before the Siege?
I just find it odd that Jaina was going to hit the location holding the survivors and no rescue attempt being made. I mean she rescued Baine from the same place in BFA.
I don’t know if she knew for sure.
But the survivors getting their teeth kicked in by the Orgrimmar residents does blacken somewhat their innocence and their doom by Jaina’s hand had Thrall not interfered.
Honestly where was Thrall in all this? Wasn’t Garrosh his responsibility? He gets to be “superman”? He created this whole mess.
I don’t know why Thrall wasn’t more involved. He had been the Horde Warchief since WOW started (and before). The only excuse is the lame one: They didn’t want that story. Same reason Saurfang was MIA during Garrosh’s march to Star Wars’ Empire theme music. Especially Saurfang after the big speech at Warsong Hold during Wrath.
You should include Jaina herself. Theramore was a staging ground/supply base for invasion. She allowed that to happen thereby contributing to her own destruction.
Why shouldnt she have allowed it? She was ALWAYS ALLIANCE and her allies, the night elves, were being targeted. Again, her involvement is still predicated on Horde actions. So if anyone is to blame it is still the Horde.
Theramore was never neutral. Jaina has always been a member of it. Literally, the entire city was built by Alliance refugees. Heck, the night elves AND dreanei are member of the Alliance because of her.
In addition to Smallioz’s words, Sylvanas had won the battle before she burned Teldrassil. Malfurion was out of commission, Tyrande had ceded the battle unofficially. Delaryn, the highest-ranking Night Elf present, ceded the war to Sylvanas (she literally said that Sylvanas has “won”).
Sylvanas did the equivalent of sinking lifeboats after defeating an enemy ship in battle/killing surrendering civilians on the opposite side. A war crime. Sylvanas has no moral high ground for the Burning of Teldrassil, and it was worse than the Bombing of Theramore or Jaina’s attempt to flood Orgrimmar in revenge.
Because common sense should tell you, that once the alliance armies return across sea, the horde are going to raze it to the ground so it can’t be used the same way again!
And yes Theramore has been presented as ‘neutral’. Not neutral neutral, just neutral, due to shared experience and friendship with Thrall.
She was “neutral” in the sense that she was not going to start crap(which is more or less the same that could have been said of Thrall), but she was and is an Alliance patriot and was not going to let the Horde just push the night elves. A race she is so close to that Shandis consider’s her a battle sister and that she even has a night elven bodyguard at the time.