[Spoiler]Judgement of Sylvanas

This is… a strange wording, it can be understood in any way.

Torture

Will you be satisfied with death by a thousand cuts? Or by lynching, without any attempt to feign a trial? Maybe forgiveness and the issuance of a license to torture, experiment and kill Sylvan?

“Should Sylvanas get the ending she deserves, yes or no?” If you don’t specify what exactly a “deserved” ending is, then probably the majority will answer “yes” based on their own considerations, right?

Russian

Это… странная формулировка, её можно понимать как угодно.

Истязания

Будете ли вы довольны смертью от тысячи порезов? Или линчеванием, без какой-либо попытки изобразить суд? Может, всепрощение и выдача Сильвана лицензии на пытки, эксперименты и убийства?

“Должна ли Сильвана получить заслуженную концовку, да или нет?”. Если не уточнять, чем именно является “заслуженная” концовка, то, вероятно, большинство ответит “да”, исходя из своих соображений, верно?

I will be fine if Sylvanas get her redemption. Ok it was the Jailor…
but the night elves need to get something in the end of this.

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I think this is actually what makes me feel as disillusioned as I have with the story of Sylvanas post-Legion.

Before she wasn’t “good”, she had committed her fair share of crimes. But there was a thread of logic that you could follow and although she may have committed acts of evil - they weren’t for the sake of evil itself in the vast majority of circumstances.

Whereas the burning of Teldrassil really did feel like a point that’s difficult to return from and here we are nearly at the end of the Shadowlands expansion and we still don’t have a great idea as to why she did it. What is “killing hope”? How does it factor into the overall plan? If her plot was to instigate a war that would claim the lives of both members of the Horde and Alliance alike; in turn feeding their souls to the Maw - then what was burning the tree supposed to actually achieve? Given that motive shouldn’t she want the NE and the Alliance to vigorously fight back? At that point it didn’t matter to her if the souls being sent to the Maw were Alliance or Horde.

Surely them taking Teldrassil, pushing all of the NE out of it and then burning it down does enough to push the Alliance into war. That would be the Horde destroying a major Alliance hub and the home of the Night Elves. It doesn’t even make sense from the perspective of sending the souls of those who died in Teldrassil to the Maw as she had no way of knowing that Elune had been reached out to by her sister and as a result opted to send the souls of those who fell in Teldrassil to the Shadowlands - she couldn’t have possibly known that those souls would end up in the Maw.

So was it just evil for the sake of evil? Did she just want to kill hope out of spite?

Given the revelation since, it’s hard not to see events like that and wonder if the culture present at Blizz impacted the story - that they felt compelled to ensure that this major female character was shown in such a light.

As if they couldn’t let Arthas, a male character, be the abuser without adding on the addendum of “but wait, the female victim is also just really bad guys”.

The situation with Anduin also seems rather tasteless. As you said:

That only serves to solidify an overall misogynistic viewpoint of Sylvanas. It reeks of the stereotype of the “impure” woman corrupting the “pure” man - which bleeds into an idea that has had significant historical prevalence where women are chastised for actions that their male counterparts are not. Because in the case of the woman it’s considered “impure” and in the case of the man it was not scrutinised at all.

Obviously that wasn’t the overt implication intended there, but it speaks of the subconscious mentality that we have now learnt pervaded Blizzard as a company. It wasn’t the pure man Anduin that fell due to his own flaws, it was the impure woman that worked to tempt him. We didn’t need the temptress subtext on top of it all.

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Well. To start, the same people would be denying the SA allegory, but they’d be joined by more, given people are even less inclined to credit male abuse survivors.

You’d likely have more people hating Sylvanus (my choice for the male name), but that hate would be far more subdued. Look at Garrosh; also invaded Ashenvale and Darkshore, blew up Theramore, ruined the Vale, but the hate towards him has never been as vitriolic.

And like Garrosh, there’d be vocal defenders for Sylvanus. But those defenders would be less likely to be brushed off as “simps” for “liking the sexy boy”.

On the other hand, some people who wouldn’t defend Sylvanas would be all about defending Sylvanus. They’d never say it, try hard not to ever imply it, but they’d be secretly overjoyed that Sylvanus “stuck it to that B, Tyrande”. And similarly, some current defenders would be swayed to haters for the optics of the male kerchief “conquering” the female leader’s lands.

Just some ways it’s change.

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It feels more like some Sylvanas fans will be content regardless of what her ending is. First it was expectations of Sylvanas coming to lead the Forasaken again. Then it was lowered to just expecting her to return to Azeroth and left alone. Now in the prospect of Sylvanas jumping into the Maw some of her fans are still claiming to be happy.

While people say Blizzard should write whatever they want because some Night Elf fans would still be unhappy about it, by the opposite measure Blizzard can write whatever they want for Sylvanas’ fate and some Sylvanas fans will still take the effort to view it as a happy ending.

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I think it’s mainly because the new 9.2 cinematic proved she’s not the monster everyone is claiming she is and she herself admitted her crimes were unforgivable. It’s enough for most of us to be happy regardless of how it actually ends.

But that’s me, I can’t speak for anyone else

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Ranger General Sylvanas literally called Banshee Sylvanas a monster.

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I’m aware.

Hence why I said she admitted her own crimes were unforgivable. Why did you skip that part? :eyes:

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Because if anything that reinforces that even she admits she is the monster everyone believes her to be and she has to face the consequences for it.

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And why I also said most of us will be happy regardless of what happens.

Seems you just want to be contrarian for the sake of it.

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Not contrarian. Just don’t see any basis for the statement “proved she’s not the monster.”

I can’t and wouldn’t tell people how to feel.

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The 9.2 cinematic definitely didn’t prove she’s not the monster that people claimed her to be, it proved that Blizzard will contrive anything to get Sylvanas off the hook.

I don’t care anymore. I hope she screws off to the Maw to hunt for her cringy little boyfriend and stays out of WoW’s story forever.

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Well, we weren’t supposed to be playing a simple good vs. evil game. With the actual story presentment now reading too easily as good vs. evil it changes our “feel” throughout the story.
And yes, it really tears up the engagement with the story.

Teldrassil is a narrative mess with a lot of back and forth in itself. And it lacks coherence.
I’m a bit uninterested in a long talk on Teldrassil, so I’m not going to delve into it further. But yeah, you’re right that there are major issues there.

Where they’re putting the sympathetic weight, and how the concepts are being allocated to the characters, is weird.
The PTR cinematic, with its overly simple good/bad split of Sylvanas, has a meta read that just feels dirty to me.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised by her character art showing up with a scarlet A at this point.

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Well, there isn’t one author. So, as above:

That’s what drew me to the Forsaken, and in turn Sylvanas, in the first place. They were flawed, they had a tragic past and a tragic form of existence and they did do wrong. They weren’t the stereotypical heroes who were good for the sake of being good, they weren’t without their issues. It’s also why the Worgen (perhaps ironically from a narrative perspective) have long been my favourite Alliance race - they had that darker aspect and Genn wasn’t (what I consider to be) the stereotypical Alliance leader, which tend to be on the verge of too good historically.

That’s entirely fair. I think realistically a lot of how Teldrassil will be remembered now hinges on Golden and the upcoming book. I think a lot of the reason as to why I find Teldrassil difficult to reconcile is because I just have no clarity as to why it even occurred.

I was really quite disappointed in that part of the 9.2 cinematic. We had a moment of internal dialogue between the “Banshee Queen” Sylvanas and “Ranger General” Sylvanas at Teldrassil while it burned - you had the “Ranger General” aspect pleading to understand why/how her other half could have done it.

And yet, even there - where Sylvanas was ostensibly talking entirely to herself, we were given no further insight into her thoughts or motives. All we got was the same sort of cryptic stuff we’ve had for years now.

“This was beyond life and death.”
“There was no other path to true freedom.”

It was the perfect opportunity to provide further insight into the “Banshee Queen” aspect, instead we got no further insight at all. Why was there no other path to true freedom?

At some point you need to lift the veil Blizz, mystery isn’t supposed to be taken to the grave.

I think Golden has her work cut out for her - but I do hope that she manages to provide that further insight that will allow people to more easily reconcile what happened, for the story’s sake.

I’m generally not a big fan of the whole split. And though I don’t think it was necessarily intended to be “good” vs “bad” Sylvanas, that is what comes across in the cinematic to many - and understandably so.

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Given your latest statement in another thread, as a Sylvanas fan you’re more sounding disingenuous in the same manner yourself.

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Whoever wrote the faction wars clearly had a Horde bias maybe the faction war would be better written the next time around. I want to see an actual Alliance victory over the horde that can’t be missed if you didn’t read a tweet or a dialogue line.

It’s called Battle of Dazar’Alor

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Alliance running away as soon as the Horde show up to defend an Allied race that was not formally even in the Horde yet is not what I consider a victory over the Horde.
If Blizzard can give the Horde something like Teldrassil or Theramore victories they can give something similar to the Alliance.
No last minute Horde get away, or negation of the victory. Just give us an undeniable victory. I think Alliance has earned one after so many years.

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The Horde was already there, they’re the first bosses of the raid. The Alliance killed Rastakhan and that death hasn’t been negated. The Alliance undeniably got that victory.

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