I’m sorry, I missread your comment.
You are right, the GD likes to flip these kinds of argument by using the same argument against us as a way to silence us.
I wrongfully jumped to the conclusion you thought ppl being triggered is nonsense…I was like “whoa, that’s not like him.”
I can see why you’d interpret it like that, that’s definitely a connotation that accompanies the word “violate”.
But it most certainly doesn’t only mean one thing.
You can violate a person’s privacy, which doesn’t necessarily need to have any sexual ramifications.
More relevant to Arthas specifically, it also holds connotations of desecration; you can violate a person’s “human” rights.
I always saw Arthas as violating people in the way that he stole their ability to enact free will and forced undeath upon them, I’d consider Arthas forcibly raising Sylvanas into a banshee to be abused and used as a pawn as a violation of her. Though not necessarily a sexual one.
I don’t think this necessarily holds connotations of anything sexual, just that he held a lot of spite. Definitely indicates misogyny though.
The “skin” crawling seems entirely logical given what he did to her. The “violates” aspect seems to me to refer pretty explicitly to him turning her into a banshee as the entire context of that memory is the moment he “pulls her back” or in other words turns her into a banshee.
“Leer” pretty obviously holds sexual connotations though.
That’s pretty textbook misogyny, that’s for sure.
I’m not sure what a “psychologists definition of rape” means. Rape is a physical act. Many forms of abuse share the characteristic of a perpetrator enjoying inflicting harm or “breaking” their victims.
Feels like you are misrepresenting things a touch here.
Arthas looking at Sylvanas and smiling is not what made her skin crawl. The entire memory from the smiling to her being turned into a banshee to his laughter is what made her skin crawl. If you wanted to narrow it down to a singular aspect it would be the laughter that really made her skin crawl and not the leering, it was the point of “laughter” that was really connected with the sensation of her skin crawling. Which holds stronger connotations of callousness and cruelty than the sexual nature of leering. As you can see when you look at the way the “skin crawling” sentence is structured:
So while I definitely think the idea of an allegory for sexual violence is valid and there’s plenty of logic in that interpretation.
There’s also logic in the interpretation that it was just a pretty horrendous case of abuse fuelled at least in part by a healthy dose of misogyny.
So the full passage is:
It was oddly peaceful in Silverpine. Soft mists swirled gently near the moist, pine- needle- covered earth. Sylvanas knew that if she had possessed physical feet, she would have felt it soft and springy beneath them; would have inhaled a rich evergreen scent from the moist air. But she felt nothing, smelled nothing. She floated, insubstantial, toward the meeting site. And such was her eagerness for the meeting that at this moment she did not regret her lack of senses.
Arthas had enjoyed turning beautiful, proud, strong- willed quel’dorei women into banshees, after his “success” with her. He had given them to she who had been their ranger- general in life, to control and command, tossing her a bone like she was a faithful hound. He would shortly see how faithful a pet she was. After overhearing the dreadlords’ conversation earlier, she had sent one of her banshees after them to speak with them and gather information.
The tone of her inner monologue is referencing to her own fate as banshee. I did not get any impression that Sylvanas was referencing sexual violence. Its more akin to a abusive relationship where Arthas (the man) has to be in total control of the banshees (women)
Here is the passage of what actually happened to Sylvanas
She met the deadly blade head- on, striking it with her own weapons, which shattered upon impact. And then the runeblade had pierced her. Cold, so cold it was, slicing through her as if it was made of ice itself.
Arthas leaned in to her, his gaze locked with hers. Sylvanas coughed, fine droplets of blood spattering his bone- pale face. Was it her imagination, or was there a hint of regret on his still- fine features?
He tugged back his weapon and she fell, blood gushing out of her. Sylvanas shivered on the cold stone floor, the movement causing agony to rip through her. One hand fluttered, foolishly, to the gaping wound in her abdomen, as if her hands could close on it and stop the flood.
This one I found interesting:
For my glory, you will serve, Sylvanas. For the dead, you will toil. For obedience, you will hunger. Arthas is the first and most beloved of my death knights; he will command you forever, and you will find it joyous.
Arthas saw her shiver, and he smiled.
I think this is the passage that people are referencing for the sexual violence, but Sylvanas stresses it is mental rather than physical. This describes the feeling of getting turned into an undead.
And then it went away.
It all went away.
The coldness, the stench, the searing pain. It was soft and warm and dark and calm and comforting, and Sylvanas permitted herself to sink into the welcoming darkness. At last she could rest, could lay down the arms she had borne for so long in service to her people.
And then— Agony shot through her, agony such as she had never known, and Sylvanas suddenly knew that no physical pain she had ever endured could hold a pale candle to this torment. This was an agony of the spirit, of her soul leaving her lifeless form and being trapped. Of a…ripping, tearing, yanking back from that warm sanctuary of silence and stillness. The violence of the act added to the exquisite torment, and Sylvanas felt a scream welling up, forcing its way from deep inside, past lips that somehow she knew were no longer physical, a deep keening wail of a suffering that was not hers alone, that froze blood and stopped hearts.
The blackness faded from her vision, but colors did not return. She did not need reds or blues or yellows to see him, though, her tormentor; he was white and gray and black even in a world with color. The runeblade that had taken her life, had taken and consumed her soul, glittered and gleamed, and Arthas’s free hand was lifted in a beckoning gesture as he ripped her from the soothing embrace of death.
As for the edge of night reference I can’t find it Death. Can you tell me where it is?
The whole plan was to have as many of them evacuate as possible, while the Horde would only need to hold only a contingent amount of hostages.
I’m not trying to insult you at all, I would like to have a reasonable discussion with you without insults and aggression. I would suggest you bringing it down a notch or two. Reread A Good War or you can do a search for “evac” on A Good War pdf.
“What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?” - Sylvanas
The whole planned banked on enough civilians evacuating, which was happening before they even reached Darkshore.
There are tons of references in the pdf, I highly suggest you take another look.
The “new” definition if rape usn’t purely about sex. It’s about power and violence. The old definition of rape being about a sexual act is outdated. When psychologists studied rape they found that sex wasn’t always what the perp wanted, it was a tool. The real reason why people rape was because it gave them satisfaction through power and violence, and sometimes even the act of humiliating thier vicims.
How can you read what Deathisfinal linked above about Arthas’s desires and not make the same connection to the new definition of rape?
Arthas did not gave sex with Sylvanas. No one is claiming that. We are claiming that subtextually what Arthas did to her and her trauma is metaphoricsl rape because it accomplished the same thing. He violated her, he took satisfaction in violating her, he violated others like her because he enjoyed what he did.
She is referencing becoming a banshee. Arthas’ success into making a banshee and then making others and having her command them.
Sure NP
1st paragraph.
For the record I’m not trying to convince you to change your view. All I want to do is share with you why I believe it is a sexual allegory, there really aren’t wrong or right answers here
: )
I think people are definitely justified in viewing that passage as sexual violence. But what I disagree with is that it is the ONLY interpretation.
And I will take a look. Thanks.
First.
second: You always pull your “evidence” enormously out of context. The statement does not come in the context that as many as possible can FLY, but that the night elves should not fight, because otherwise the horde has too high losses.
and that’s exactly why it’s almost impossible to discuss with you without being annoyed by this…ignorance at some point, pulling statements out of context like that.
and the same aplay to renautus, you´re both are…liar, why should i argue with liar? or are you readingskills so poorly that you can´t understand a message in context of the entire message, the full sentence.
Even from the Arthas book, yes, even from the Novel Before the Storm. I’ve been able to prove to you several times now that you pull statements out of context to frame Sylvanas somehow, in a better light, as a greater victim, but as soon as the context is to be read…a completely different picture is confirmed.
Can you link to where this new definition comes from?
I tried a Google search but everything I could find defines rape as the physical act.
This seems to be conflating the motive for sexual violence with the act itself to me.
That same motive could just as likely be behind any number of abuses enacted upon victims that aren’t necessarily sexual in nature.
But that would be where our misunderstanding stems from.
Haha your Alliance bias is showing Zahir why don’t you just post on your EU Alliance main… oh because you can’t, you are just here to troll.
: unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person’s will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception
definition of rape…
another lie…
ÄH…what??!
Sylvanas: “If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest”
(the reason she want to stop them fighting)
and the real sad part…this was a part of their planing _this entire conversation happened to their phase of planing.
just fyi be careful when using the R word. You can get a vacation from it.
Okay, you’re doing too much. You’re too hostile and aggressive and quite frankly I have been over this type of engagement for a very very long time(over a decade ago). I honestly and simply do not feel like discussing this with you. Thanks, and I hope you honestly enjoy the rest of your day.
It’s found in the medical journal titled, The Emotional and Psychological Aspects of Rape. It’s in the google list of articles if you search the definition of rape.
I hope you accept medical journals as legitimate sources, because most other people here don’t.
Honestly the passage in the novella is pretty explicit that the Horde did not want to fight a strong force when they arrived at Teldrassil rather than interested in the safe evacuation of the civilians. Only Saurfang was concerned about civilians but only for political reasons rather than moral ones.
Thanks, I honestly didn’t know that. I just saw a lot of people dancing around the word so I followed suit.
Haha no Saurfang was like “If thier boats are fighting us on the beach they can’t evacuate, Lok’tar O’gar!”
This is why Loyalists were pissed off the game turned Saurfang into a hypocrite. He didn’t care about the NE’s until after he failed to kill Malfruian but that’s not the topic we are on here.
Don’t get me started on him.
But on that specific passage in the novella thats what he said.
The plan was to have enough of them evacuate so it would not be a pain to maintain a overbearing amount of prisoners.
Sylvanas tapped her fingers on the table, thinking. “Let us make sure Tyrande does not return. The kaldorei evacuation—it helps us if they use every resource to get their people off the World Tree before we arrive, correct?”
“I believe so, Warchief,” Saurfang said. It would reduce the number of prisoners the Horde would need to care for, it would take fighters off the line to guard the evacuation, and it would mean that most of the Alliance’s magic wielders would need to remain on Teldrassil to assist instead of joining the battle in Ashenvale.
She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said.
“What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?