please tell us more about your beliefs, “magadwarf”
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well its all about mass trash pulling and doing aoe, thats 1 thing. How is this fun?
Ok. But its not.
You need to interupt, stun, funnel damage, deal with mechanics, then boss fights.
M+ is more about consistent pulls than mass pulls most weeks. Mass trash pulling is not the norm for most people.
Like this week. Its fortified/bolstering. You arent gonna have mass pulls.
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The problem is balance. If you make the content harder, to which you have to slow down. The amount of completion and participation drops.
How cata dungeons were just a few years back were awful. Yea tuning was off, but no one cares to learn mechanics so it was a wipefest because the fury war and tank died to orzuks slam for a 5th time.
So content like this gets nerfed to the point where weekend andy can log in, and effortlessly clear said content with zero experience. Which causes semi skilled players to fly through them even more effortlessly.
The question arises, how do you fix this?
Do you buff it/nerf it? Do you remove mechanics? Do you add mechanics? How do you make it so people slow down without struggle busing their way through it?
Someone like me. I lived cata. I did my heroic dungeon meta achievements THROUGH lfg with pugs. I can do that content with my eyes closed. So now, 12 years later, I just want to complete it for my weekly reward.
So how do you balance this around someone like me and a first time player?
Unfortunately, any dungeon pre wod, I’ve completed each one easily 1k+ times.
However, I’d run through vanilla dungeons all day, every day if I could. And I’ve done those 2-3k+ times each lol. Except brd… I don’t like any iteration of brd.
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And the relative power level of characters (specifically tanks) in classic compared to the dungeon difficulty is much lower than in retail. Players can’t survive pulling every mob from one boss onto another in classic except in specific circumstances, certainly not 10 minutes after hitting max level. They can do that in M0 dungeons on retail.
This isn’t an M+ thing, it’s a player power level thing. Blizzard could fix this tomorrow without doing a thing to M+ if they wanted by simply tuning dungeons to be much more lethal to tanks at lower levels of the content. This would create problems in other ways to be sure, but the speed running in normal, heroic, time walking, and low level mythic dungeons would stop after a few weeks of tanks realizing they actually need their team to support.
Its still too fast paced for an mmorpg imo. Its too much like an arpg
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no it’s not. i suspect you’re just making things up!
Doesn’t certain affixes kinda put a kibosh on mass trash pulls?
ugh, no im not
There is no speed limit to qualify for an MMO
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whatever nvm.
What is the right speed?
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i think the way it was in wotlk or cata was good
I mean, I don’t know how you ran dungeons in wrath, but groups I ran with speed-ran them. I can’t speak for Cata, as I took a break for the first half of that expansion and didn’t do many dungeons. But we definitely speed-ran our daily wrath ones for tokens.
This isn’t true. It’s entirely on the players. The exact same mentality exists in FFXIV (I’d argue it’s actually worse over there), and they don’t have M+.
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Honestly I think the main problem comes down to the power level of players at low levels and in low item levels is too high relative to lower level (normal, timewalking, heroic, M0) content. I would personally target power level scaling before the dungeons themselves, but honestly tweaks to both might be necessary.
I truly don’t have a problem with a mythic raid geared tank being able to pull boss to boss in M0 dungeons. I think the pacing in M+ is quite good as well. The problem is the base power level people have in the lower end gear against the lower end content and scaled gear to time walking content.
For example, I was doing an M0 world tour on my priest in week 2 of the expansion for gear to get ready for keys. For our Neltharus run we got a DH tank whose gear was an average of 50 item levels below what would drop in M0. He did the entire dungeon in 5 pulls (he didn’t know the 2-pack after forgemaster would snap so we did them alone), literally every pack onto the next boss. I don’t care how experienced of a tank you are, when you have that far of a gear deficit compared to what the dungeon drops at that difficulty, you should be getting your face smashed if you are pulling more than a few packs, not capable of surviving for 30 seconds while your disc priest is running as fast as he can to catch up.
My suggestion would be that quest gear should leave you powerful enough to do 2-3 pack pulls with decent play from the whole group in normal but struggle if you do much more than that. Then to allow for the weekend Andy crowd, there should be a lot more ways to get normal quality gear from things like WQ so they can effortlessly catch up to being ready for heroic and then mythic.
I really want to see Blizzard implement a full 24 boss, 4-hour BRD key for April Fool’s one year.
Speed running dungeons was just as present in Vanilla as it is today. Just because we were mechanically forced to go slower didn’t mean we didn’t aim to go as fast as we realistically could. In fact, there were actual consequences with going too slow and wiping in Vanilla as trash would respawn and if your group wiped and faced respawned trash, there was an incredibly high liklihood of the group disbanding unless you were certain (you weren’t) you could get ahead of the respawning wave.
It’s perfectly fine to be a left of bell curve player and the current pace be too fast for you to keep up. The onus is on YOU though to find other like-minded left of bell curves and run content together where your left of bell curve play doesn’t impact the rest of us capable of keeping up.
Yes
Definitely farmed those as fast as possible.
I agree that lower level/non M+ dungeons are a much larger issue in this regard.
idk, its just not the same.
We absolutely speed ran wrath dungeons. They made this basically impossible in Cataclysm with a significant jump in difficulty.