We already have a type of benevolent necromancers in the game: The Auchenai. I know that’s not the aesthetic people wanting necromancers want, but it’s entirely possible to have death magic users who are good. There’s nothing inherently evil about death magic.
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Forsaken already have Necromancers. Orcs have shown a high tolerance for Necromancy, as do Trolls, etc.
Most cultures don’t look well upon consorting with Demons either, and yet there is a space for Warlocks.
So if I put my death knight in the dalaran arcana robes from the trading post, is he a necromancer then?
A true blue Dalaran alumni, just like sweet ol’ Kel Thuzad.
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Do warlocks still have Immolation Aura?
Answer = No
Why do you think that is?
Because they want to keep the class fantasy to the roots of Warcraft and so they made changes to allow both Demon Hunter and Warlock to retain more of their lore based on the RTS games.
Why do you think they gave Havoc access to Immolation Aura? Because the Demon Hunter Hero in WC3 has it and so it was a beyond a specific spec issue.
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Nice attempt to salvage the point, but it’s not going to work. Is it that hard to say “Hey, you know what, I got ahead of myself, I started playing this game after WotLK and/or I have never played a Warlock, and I made a mistake, my bad”?
hardly, they’ve always been described as being outsiders/living on the fringes of society because like with necromancy most find it distasteful. they’re shoved into a pit underneath orgrimmar in the cleft of shadows. in stormwind you’d have to go out of your way beneath a bar to find some. and races are not monolithic. there is a very clear difference between willfully compelling a demon into serving you than going out to defile the corpse of another living being and force it to serve you.
But benevolently shepherding the departed is boring and you’ll never be on a death metal cover album doing it.
Yeah, this is exactly my point. A new class doesn’t require a hand-signed invitation to the Stormwind Throne Room. They can, as other classes do, live on the absolute fringes of society being largely distrusted.
Whatever spells the Warlock had in its Metamorphosis is irrelevant since that entire mechanic was removed thus all the spells associated with it no longer are part of the modem game.
They were removed because they wanted to shift direction with Demonology in order to restore the theme proper to Demon Hunters.
Which makes my point again that they want to retain class uniqueness and they will break some aspects of a class in order to do so.
Which again proves the point that adding a Necromancer will be extremely difficult if not down right impossible because of so much existing crossover between Unholy Death Knight and Demonology Warlock.
That’s the the win you think it is lol.
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If it were irrelevant, you wouldn’t have tried to score an “own” on me with the FAILED and EMBARRASSING misstep of:
You were wrong. You are so unfamiliar with the actual subject matter that you’re literally saying things that are demonstrably untrue because you’ve never bothered to engage with this subject beyond “nuh uh.”
Warlocks and Demon Hunters both utilize Fel Fire, still. Both utilize actual Demons in different ways, etc. Paladins & Priests both utilize the Holy Light for the exact same purposes. Monks and Shaman still both utilize “Spirit” (See Blizzard statements on the nature of Chi), etc.
Ultimately, Warlocks are largely irrelevant to the discussion & Unholy Death Knights, due to being a single spec spread across a VERY broad design space, aren’t likely to suffer much at all.
Freudian slip.
What are you even trying to accomplish at this point?
Have I played since the begining? Yes
Have a played a warlock? Yes
Have a played a Demonology Warlock? No, I prefer affliction.
I knew of the abilities that the Demonology Warlock used in Demon Form from a base level. But I was not intimately familiar with them.
But again, how is that relevant in this conversation in today’s modern wow with what a decade since the removal of Warlocks Metamorphosis or about that long?
Warlocks don’t have it today, that was the point. The fact that they don’t have it anymore is the entire focus here, they don’t have it because it went to Demon Hunter.
Don’t you think it’s a little odd for a warlock to have both Immolate AND Immolation Aura from a thematic perspective? So one they use on enemies to hurt them… The other they use on themselves to hurt enemies?
Seems a bit of over bloated in design concepts rammed into a single class.
You are for some reason stuck on the perception of literal vs conception.
I was speaking on the concept of Demon Hunters and their lore origin back to Warcraft RTS games and how warlock from its inception into WoW never had those base abilities.
Because as you recall, my entire basis of argument is from how everything came to be from the Warcraft RTS to be translated into the wow classes. Anything beyond that is just fluff which you seem to be overly caught up in which means your not seeing the forest through the trees.
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Then your books are suffering from your lacking imagination.
Necromancers are not TEXTBOOK DEFINITION of Death Knights, cause otherwise they wouldn’t be 2 separate units reffered to separateley as Death Knights or Necromancers. Arthas was a Death Knight, Keltuzad was a Necromancer. Death Knights are Undead, necromancers are NOT necessarily undead. Death Knight fighting style is miles different than the necromancer’s.
Saying they are the same is simply dumb. And while these differences exist, they are not the same, never were, never will be. So don’t give me that acceptance crap, please.
Boss, Priests were also present during the crusades. So what you talking about here? The majority of the crusaders were knights, squires, footmen and PRIESTS, The Paladin is based on the Knight Hospitallers who were crusaders, true, but they were basically militarized priests, monks and physicians. They started out as a benevolent mission that was later militarized, much like the Paladins in WoW who started out as … monks, warriors and priests. So again you talking out your read and hoping it would stick.
A knight is a unit that focuses on front line combat, like the paladin, while a necromancer focuses on spell casting from a distance. That is evident in WoW and Warcraft III. So there you go, many differences between these two units which, AGAIN, are depicted as separate units. So please cut the crap.
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Says you, Blizzard, the ones who created this game disagree, seeing fit to create 2 separate units.
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Why you so upset , OP?
I loved playing necromancer in EQ and GW1.
Funnily enough if you’re an EQ vet and been playing WoW since the beginning you’d know they actually borderline did a 1:1 copy when it comes to Vanilla Warlock abilities being identical to EQ necromancer. Life tap, fear kiting, scaling minions that can tank for you, siphon life, and basically the entire affliction line.
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You miss the point; Nowhere does it say that if a Necromancer is tanking it is no longer a Necromancer. That distinction is not a requirement for the class fantasy, The requirement for the class fantasy is being a death dealer that raises and controls the undead. That’s really all there is to that fantasy.
[quote=“Dracarian-medivh, post:149, topic:2029939, full:true”]
The same place it says that tinker can tank.
WC3 when the Tinker ultimate ability turned the unit into a literal tank that could destroy buildings with ease?
The point is this; A Necromancer that can tank is still a necromancer.
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the necromancer/WC3 UHDK playstyle is available in pvp, its really only viable in epics as a sort of teamfight disrupter, though its pretty long in tooth these days and suffers from multiple nerfs. it used to be a powerhouse build that destroyed everything in its way.
technically from a lore standpoint, all dks are necromancers, but not all necromancers are dks.
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Hardly. I disgraced that entire board by properly predicting Evokers, the Evoker 3rd spec, support specs, and Dark Rangers/PotM becoming part of the Hunter class. Now I have my own fan club of weirdos who follow me around the web trying to disprove my points, and when they can’t argue their way out a paper bag, they get upset and start calling me names like school children.
Yeah, but then they have to offer something different gameplay wise to the class lineup. A Necromancer class can’t do that because their main purpose is co-opted by an existing class.
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I’m glad you called Evokers! However, I don’t think you have too much of a leg to stand onthe Necromancer-Death Knight question considering I distinctly remember you mustering the exact same arguments against Demon Hunters. Apples and bowling balls!
You know exactly what my argument is, which is why your subsequent points consist of trying to flip my point here to benefit your argument.
You really should have taken the out here. It’s embarrassing to admit this.
No, it wasn’t the point, let me quote you again:
The phrase “was only used” implies that you were UNAWARE that Warlocks ever had it, something you made an excuse for in this post:
You were wrong here & are trying to pull the “Okay, I was wrong, but actually I wasn’t, but here’s an excuse for my being wrong, but also my actual point still stands!” No, it’s not going to work.
My point in bringing up the WCIII Demon Hunter kit was that the WCIII Hero Kit argument for/against classes is nothing new. You were using it & others have used it to argue against Demon Hunters. Yet it didn’t matter and Blizzard added Demon Hunters anyhow!
That’s the entire point here.
No, and this is a deeply pathetic response on your end. “Warlocks don’t have it, but also it doesn’t matter that they had it because it was uh… bloat!”
You really seem to want to dodge the point that THIS IS THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT THAT WAS USED AGAINST DEMON HUNTERS! I am not missing the forest for the trees here, I am taking you on a walk down memory lane to remind you that every single contention you are bringing up w/ the Warcraft RTS Argument was unsuccessfully raised against Demon Hunters.
The textbook definition of a Necromancer is someone who controls and manipulates the dead. Why are we overcomplicating this with nonsense?
What? You seriously think we need a Necromancer class because DKs are undead and some Necromancers are not? You think we need a new class because DKs wear plate robes instead of cloth robes and are able to fight in both melee and range instead of range? You honestly believe we need an entire new 3 spec class for something so trivial?
The differences you’re describing here is less than the difference between an Elemental and Enhancement Shaman.
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