Ret is fine. Paladins are a support class and shouldn’t be focusing on DPS anyway. Ret is probably a little overtuned in pvp too.
I’d advocate for more support abilities/buffs, starting with 10 minute duration on standard Blessings.
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They were a support class in Era. They don’t have to be in Season of Discovery.
Yeah but i want them to be, so there
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Seal of the Martyr should be doing holy (physical) damage instead in my opinion. Would add more value to things like Sanctity Aura, Seal of Crusader judgement, and talents. Would also help them scale better with holy damage’s lack of resistance.
Especially if strikes correctly procced seals etc as it would essentially turn 30% of paladins damage into the holy type.
Lmao, can’t argue with that logic 
I don’t agree with the sentiment, but great rebuttal. 
Here is the most based. And also balanced take you are going to read. And it is from a shaman.
Rets should have:
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Seals should obviously proc on crusader strikes, and divine storm, if this isnt happening it is a bug. Warriors have sword proc and deepwounds benefit from their extra attacks. Shamans imbues proc off of lava lash and will proc off of stormstrike.
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Windfury should be able to proc from divine storm, it should also proc from crusader strike. It’s asinine that it doesn’t. I am not sure if windfury procs should proc seals as that seems to be something that could be way too much burst but idk.
At the SAME TIME I also believe:
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Shamans need stormbringer mechanic from retail where special attacks including ss can reset the cooldown on stormstrike, potentially it should do more than just an extra attack. Likely bonus damage, mana return, or some form of nature vuln that is a raid debuff.
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shamans need MSW to use their spells that are castable similar to the exorcism rune and so shamans can heal in combat due to lack of pushback protection, no hard ccs, and no immunites.
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potentially a burst cleave option with Crash Lightning or Sundering so we have options that scale with our MH weapon damage similar to warrior, rogue, melee hunter(LMAO they got carve and we didnt get crash lightning!?!?!?), and ret who have divine storm.
I don’t see why hybrid Melees like shaman or ret need to be just mediocre, or absolutely horrendous like shaman. I mean after all the best DPS in the game is and has been a hybrid tank/dps class… Warrior.
5 Likes
Prot warriors have the same damage as ret pallies on warcraft logs, they probably need all the help they can get lol.
In which logs? They do at high percentile, but that is because they are essentially dps warriors and aren’t using shields or protection specialisation.
They are beating everyone except dps warriors and rogues at 99th percentile.
If pallies need help, then the 8 or so specs who are 30% below them certainly do even moreso.
I can’t imagine Enhance not getting MSW this phase, if they don’t they will have been robbed.
Stormbringer would be nice. I could take it on special attacks or even just auto’s personally, although I do like how having it on special attacks gives more benefit towards Lava Lash which I believe is currently not exactly doing amazing from what I’ve heard. (Something warcraftlogs seems to confirm)
just look up 90 percentile tank warriors are the same as ret pallies, now i had to look up what they were using to make sure, for tank warriors 3 bosses (Kelris, baron, lady) they used sword and shield (top parses). They either duel wield or 2 hand the other bosses. Meanwhile on the ret pally side they do 50 dps less than sword and shield warriors, even though they use epic 2 hands. These are the top parses though. Pallies are pretty weak considering people think they’re good. It’s going to get even worse when warriors actually have more abilities to push.
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I’d say it’s more that warriors are strong (along with some other classes), but yeah, I don’t necessarily think pallies are “good” but they are still better off than alot of the other specs right now.
Will be interesting to see how paladins hold up over time, certain specs like Elemental which is currently behind should be looking better phase 2 which might shake things up.
Certainly the fact meta (at least physical classes) are still significantly ahead and look to continue to be so in the future due to scaling is a disappointing.
Hopefully the back markers will get a bit of love soon, I still believe they needed to make baseline changes to the game to prevent this.
I’m not sure what they expected when certain classes/specs needed their rune slots simply to become viable whilst other classes/specs already were performing well and simply received further bonuses to their already powerful capabilities.
(It’s not even like they have done tuning changes that make non-shield tanking less viable, and with increased player power if anything it seems more viable and stronger)
im glad the windfury you guys ganked from horde shamans doesnt work with anything other than auto attack.
i hope it continues .
8 sec after a crit. If you run Divine Storm and SoC, Vengeance uptime is going to be relatively low.
With Seal of Martyrdom you only need ~25% crit to achieve a 99% uptime on Vengeance with a 4.0 speed weapon. And that’s assuming you only auto attack and don’t use any other abilities. But few people are gong to get Pendulum.
In practise you’ll only need 20% crit to get near 100% effective uptime with SoM. Judgment of Martydom is also going to hit substantially harder than DS thanks to the former benefitting from Vengeance twice.
But whether or not we’ll use SoM remains to be seen. Theorycrafting before we have seen the new runes are kinda pointless.
Unless warriors gets nerfed going into phase 2, they are going to be so far ahead of everyone else that some specs/classes could get a rune that said “increases all damage done by 100%” and they would still not be able to compete with warriors. And the worst part is that its not even hyperbole. Warriors have broken 500 dps on 2 bosses. meanwhile priests can barely get above 200.
When people say we are playing World of Warriorcraft: Season of Warriors, they aren’t just meme’ing.
It’s not a bug. Paladin abilities did not proc Seals until they were nerfed with the launch of WotLK.
Also, CS did proc Seals during the SoD demo, but it was removed before the game went live for balance reasons. So it’s very much intentional.
It does work, just not for Paladins.
I’m surprised no one understands that the reason that Quick Strikes procs wild strikes and WF is because it specifically states that it benefits from all effects that would otherwise alter or affect Heroic Strike. That would include windfury attack bonuses and weapon imbues.
That being said, CS and DS should have chances to proc SoCom. They don’t need to have a chance to proc SoM. If you disagree without a logical reason, you’re just in your feelings about something that should be common sense. These are weapon attacks and weapon attacks should have a chance to proc SoCom.
Paladins and Enh shamans both want better support for physical damage as that’s a better outcome for melee dps in vanilla wow. The best DPS seals scale with weapon damage, and the spell power scaling on most paladin abilities is complete dog. When it comes to debuffs on the boss, there’s no warlock curse for holy damage and nature damage has been historically gimped due to high resistance and lack of debuffs for it. Both Shaman and Pally will need to be brought up to warrior and rogue levels of damage for them to be viable specs.
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It was definitely unintentional in TBC back in 2007. Hell, it was probably less of a coding error and more a result of the network infrastructure at the time.
Having some extra delay around seals, specifically going into in TBC Classic in 2021 after the changes to spell batching to allow this, though, was by no means unintentional:
It shouldn’t be, imo, but less-than-intuitive interactions are often considered working as intended, like having Heroic Strike queued up while dual-wielding removes the 19% additional miss chance from your off-hand:
When they showed off the waist runes for Paladin in the SoD trailer with PlatinumWoW, if we’re assuming that only Howling Blast was intended to be a joke, with the other two we saw - Ardent Defender and Empowered Seals - as real runes, we’re not 100% sure how they intend to use them.
Ardent Defender we’ve seen in multiple iterations, but seeing as we have the 20% damage reduction below 35% health baked into Hand of Reckoning, I would guess it’d be Cata-style, an active ability that restores some health if an attack would kill you during that time. (Though with a longer CD.)
Empowered Seals, on the other hand, as it was as the level 100 talent in WoD, doesn’t seem like it would make sense in SoD. Maybe Empowered Seals would just be a name they use for something that will allow seal twisting. I don’t know, just spitballing.
1 Like
I’m not sure if I agree or disagree.
SoM explicitly says “causing each of your melee attacks to do 30% weapon damage to your target.” The term “melee attack” in vanilla specifically tends to mean auto-attack, so I’m fine with this only being on white hits.
SoC is rather vague, though, by saying “Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage.” It never really clarifies when you do the additional damage.
Every other seal a paladin has in vanilla/SoD, besides Command, specifically says “melee attack,” but that having been said: I’m pretty sure at least Crusader Strike, if not Divine Storm as well, can proc Seal of Justice as well.
Additional question on this: I’ve been told SoC has an approximate proc rate of 6.8 PPM. I understand a 20% chance to proc an extra attack from Wild Strikes, but I don’t really understand procs per minute. If Crusader Strike and Divine Storm could proc SoC, would the proc rate factor those into account? Or would you now get a higher proc rate because you have additional abilities?
I’ve addressed in another topic that, without some type of conversion from AP to SP for paladin & shaman - or just making everything scale with AP and give SP the finger - it’s not just that physical is more beneficial; it’s that you’d have to shoehorn enhancement and ret/prot to wearing nothing but very specific mail/plate gear that has ALL the stats they need, and that this would either wind up in gear being so lackluster that it’s not worthwhile, or that the gear would be so good that anyone that could use it would roll on it, and it’d shaft the enhancement/ret/prot that it was deisgned for. Link to the post here (skip to the addendum):
Paladin has Seal of the Crusader to drop on the boss on pull, though it requires a melee hit every 10 seconds to keep it active. That having been said, this just increases holy damage taken by the enemy; it doesn’t lower resistances at all, AFAIK. Again, not having raided in vanilla, do many bosses even have holy resistance?
But yes, shaman - especially elemental - seems like they’ll really be scuffed with so much nature damage and little option for anything else. If Earth Shock as a taunt with the Way of Earth rune equipped is still considered a Nature spell, that’s probably not gonna be a good time against a boss resistant or immune to Nature damage. Also probably gonna be a bad time for enhancement tanks trying to get AoE threat on mobs resistant/immune t fire damage.
PPM is an equation variable. With weapon procs, a 6.8 ppm means you take Your weapon speed into 60 seconds (let’s use a speed of 3.0) and you get 20 weapon attacks. Since the target number is for 6.8 of those to proc, you have approximately a 34% chance to proc on each hit. You could get lucky and proc every single one, or go 2 solid minutes with 0 procs because every single auto attack rolls against that 34% to see if it procs and can potentially just keep coming up no.
2 Likes
So you don’t know what the word latter means.
Pretty sure this is another one of those warrior favouritism things. I think WF only procs on auto attacks for everyone else. Could be wrong but I’ve never seen it proc off mangle or shred.
We’re in an awkward situation in which we need Divine Storm but also Seal of Martyr. Hopefully we can get a flex rune spot later but that may be broken for other classes. Most paladin runes are abilities in which fill a void that never quite should have been there.
The best solution is to just remove it from Alliance haha so you wont have to worry about it anymore
That’s the case with all non-meta specs from vanilla in my opinion, which is a sad state.
We are obviously behind because the game was never developed around the role, and now they get a few tools to make them more viable, whilst those that already were get even more tools/buffs.
Things like baseline Sunfire or Crusader Strike should just have been done as a class change not runes. It’s the same as horde paladin/alliance shaman, or better scaling for casters.
There are a few things I think should have been changed to the base game before just adding the rune system.
It’s not like they don’t have the option either, we have seen that they can modify base mechanics like Hunter pet scaling, so why not anything else?