Well, Alliance seems to have forgotten, because it’s never mentioned once in all bfa.
Horde has not forgotten ( Rokhan even says so when he first meets him in Stormwind ) but chooses to see past it because common interests and all that.
See above. There is zero evidence that the Alliance captured the ship because of Zul’s former actions, or that they even knew he was on this ship. Let alone that they cared why Talanji even sought the aid of the horde. Namely because she was in a desperate situation and her kingdom was about to fall apart.
They captured it because they wanted to prevent the Zandalari from allying with the horde. Simple as that. And where? Not in Alliance waters, that’s for sure.
You forgot to include that the Horde were launching operations at alliance territories and allies through their port at Zandalar. Now they my not have been apart of the Horde but from an outsiders perspective it’s pretty clear that they were allies.
My point is more towards deciding which characterization is more representative of the Zandalari in the lore.
Zul is the outlier, and I don’t regard BfA with the most confidence in representing the lore well. His plans were thwarted in cataclysm, and again in MoP. Why on earth did they drag that dead horse in to BfA only to have him predictably betray the Zandalari - resulting in the death of one of the most famed and anticipated characters in wow lore immediately after their debut.
Granted, you’re right on those accounts, I know these things as well I just don’t like it lol.
However, you’re dismissing how Zul and Talanji fell in to alliance hands to begin with and I don’t think it’s inappropriate for players interested in Warcraft lore to wonder and want more details on those circumstances.
So, was just randomly going through some stuff on wowpedia when I came across this interesting tid-bit on the Zul’Aman page.
Halduron Brightwing says: Now, Chieftain Vol’jin, before we were so rudely interrupted, you were telling us of the Zandalari plan.
Vol’jin says: Dat I was. Da Zandalari called a meeting o’ all da troll tribes includin’ da Darkspears.
Vol’jin says: King Rastakhan, he be plannin’ to unite da troll tribes under his Zandalari.
Vereesa Windrunner says: Including the Amani?
Vol’jin says: Da Amani, da Gurubashi, all o’ dem. He be dispatchin’ emissaries to every tribe.
Halduron Brightwing says: My scouts have reported nothing but quiet outside Zul’Aman.
Vol’jin says: Dey be holed up inside da ruined city, regroupin’.
Vol’jin says: Rastakhan be callin’ me his brother, but da Horde be our true brothers. We gotta stop him before he can sweet-talk da others into joinin’ his empire.
Vereesa Windrunner says: So how are we going to deal with this alliance between the Amani and the Zandalari?
Halduron Brightwing says: We must prevent it from occurring in the first place.
Vol’jin says: Dat be da plan. My men be infiltratin’ da city and learnin’ what dey can about da new Zandalari warlord.
Maybe the Alliance didn’t care so much about Zul and it really was Talanji they targeted, since we know Vol’jin went across Stranglethorn warning everyone that Rastakhan (whose actual involvement was pretty much just limited to green-lighting Zul’s plan and giving him some ships to get him out of his hair) and not Zul was the one who wanted to unite all the troll tribes and start a war of aggression to get the trolls to retake their old lands, including warning the Alliance outposts at Rebel Camp, Fort Livingston and the Explorer’s League Digsite.
Food for thought.
Mix this with the theory that Zul purposely got Talanji to sail into Alliance waters proposed by Ximothy in this thread a week or so ago, and we’re getting somewhere. It’s just unfortunate that we’re left to speculate about this as we are, because the only real reason it happened was just because Blizzard needed the plot to move on in a way to get the Zandalari to join the Horde.
This is standard operating procedure when Blizzard introduces a new Horde race: The Alliance does something inexplicably villainous.
This started way back in WC3 when Daelin Proudmoore randomly attacked the Darkspear, thus driving them to the orcs, and has been a motif ever since (see also Blood Elves, Goblins, Vulpera, Mag’har (if we consider Yrell Alliance-adjacent, which they certainly do)). Blizzard even has retconned in Alliance villainy , when we were told only recently that apparently Sylvanas originally sent Forsaken envoys to the Alliance, who likely murdered them.
The Alliance alignment is Lawful Good except when it is time for a new Horde race, at which point they briefly become Chaotic Evil for no good reason.
Considering the type of person Daelin was after the second war, it wouldn’t surprise me that himself and his forces (who did attack the Darkspear earlier, see chapter 3 of the proloque campaign) attacked the Darkspear simply because, they be trolls mon. It is important to note that those Kul Tiran forces shown in chapter 3 of the prologque campaign for WC3 were chasing down the horde after the horde set sail to Kalimdor. So yeah, most likely “they are trolls, we hate trolls!”
Also by the time of Daelin actually landing in Kalimdor, the Darkspears were already allied with the Orcs.
Leading Horde and Alliance Forces inside, one of which was the Blood Elf LEADER.
You know who else wasn’t mentioned during the Warfronts? Talanji.
No. I’m saying that the Alliance was AWARE of what had been occurring all across Pandaria. AT LEAST most of it. And they’d know the name of the Leader leading the Zandalari offensive on the Continent.
No… Going by what’s going on IN THE GAME is not “Metagaming.”
No. That’s what I have been doing.
As it was pointed out, if they knew She was on the boat, they’d know HE was on the boat.
Which is provenly false.
Probably because Talanji WAS a more valuable target AFTER THEY ESCAPED.
We’re not talking about what happened after they escaped because that’s moot.
The only thing that matters is what they knew before she was captured.
You have yet to prove they didn’t know who Zul was.
“I take back everything I said about this place. When Zul landed us on the northern shores of the mainland, I thought this was the promised land, the salvation of the Zandalari.”
“They’re using us. But Zul says they’ll keep their word once they’re in power again. And Zul… he just seems to KNOW things.”
Sure sounds like Zul was there, leading the Zandalari in Pandaria in a pretty “hands on” way. If a single Zandalari wrote it down, surely his name would of been mentioned it somewhere for the duration of the conflict. It wasn’t a big secret that Zul was involved. Anything that is learnable by the player can be learned just as easily by anyone in Universe. The Information is there.
Except when a guy’s name turns up often enough during confrontations with a people who has declared war on you, Even a half-competent information network would be about to put two and two together.
Show me then where was he exactly? How come that in the Vol’Jin’s book, Vol’Jin who actually met with Zandalari leadership who was commanding the various assaults NEVER MET HIM. He could’ve lead them but he never appeared in person. To give a lead to anyone.
Thatnever made it inside the instance. Vol’Jin and Darkspears were the ones who made it inside and it was Vol’Jin who appeared at the end of Instance. Not a single belfie there. The fact remains he was the one who separheded it. He prepared it all, gathered cannon fodder from Alliance even.
Warfronts aren’t tied to Zandalar’s campaign Arathi and Darkshore would feel very out of place if they’d feature Zandalari. And Talanji was referenced in her escape. Genn was even threatening to get her captured again in BoD.
So by this small difference, I believe that Alliance did recognize they had Zandalari princess and didn’t recognize they had mastermind of Zandalari aggression, and judging by how gave was developed, they had right to not have this knowledge.
But I was not claiming that Alliance was utterly oblivious that Zandalari were agressive, I was contesting the idea that Alliance was well aware that it was Zul who was behind it all, when Vol’Jin who actually had a meeting with Zandalari in Pandaria never encountered him and never spoke to him to figure out he was behind it all.
I already elaborated above why Alliance had a right to not know on who Zul is and the scope of his involvement. Alliance having a knowledge of it despite never having actual chance in game to actually find it out, or being showed to be aware of it is what metagaming is. Just because player knows something doesn’t mean that NPC in the very same game could have a knowledge of it.
For example just because We found out that Vol’Jin was deceived in picking Sylvanas as Warchief doesn’t mean that Alliance has this knowledge.
And even more balant example - just because we found out that one of the Amahnet Turned out to be Faceless One manipulating them to agression doesn’t mean the rest of that faction knows about it.
So bottom line is just because something is obvious to player doesn’t mean it’s obvious to various NPCs.
Nope, You didn’t bring any Alliance NPC recognising Zul being the mastermind of agression.
You make no sense here. Like How they’d know that when they don’t know HIM at all?
No, it is not. You need to provide source to actually show that my claim is false, maybe the next book would bring clarification. But for so long it was nothing but assumption on your part.
I already did. None of the Alliance NPC since Cata period shown to have any knowledge about Zul.
Heck, THE SPYMASTER that was preparing assault onZuldazar wasn’t aware that Zandalari had the civil war, in which Zul had fallen AND they didn’t know that they apparently have paladins. But they were right there on the display!
It’s almost like Alliance isn’t omipotent.
Ok single Zandalari wrote a note in his diary, but it still isn’t a proof that Alliance knows it, it’s not a proof that Vol’Jin who actually met with Zandalari leadership knew it.
You’re using a flavor item as justification for Alliance faction to be extremely well informed of Zandalari politics.
So if we find an item that belonged to old god cultists does that mean that Alliance is also well aware of what they think about them?
If we read Steamy novels does that mean the whole Alliance is aware of Marcu’s adventures?
It feels like breaking down each encounter I describe with Zandalari point by point how it was delivered meets the deaf ears because you return with the same story.
Just because something is obvious to PC, doesn’t mean it’s obvious to lore characters. Alliance only truly faced Zandalari when they attacked dwarves and in Pandaria - and sepcifically Isle of Thunder via Kirin’Tor and Jaina. Entire Alliance was never involved in full war with Zandalari because Vol’Jin handled the Cataclysm movements and the Kun’Lai assault canonically.
Yet you speak as if Alliance was involved on each step and was perfectly aware of what was going on when the most information they had came from Vol’Jin who himself didn’t know that Zul was more than just mouthpiece of Rastakhan.
