So what is the average player

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Brewa-hyjal

^ What does this even mean?

WoW is currently being developed like a sport because of:

—Excessive use of timers in traditional RPG content like dungeons, and content like Torghast where not all players and specs are wired for speed.

—Obsession with competition, and the stipulation that only the top 1-5% wins anything, as in the recent Mage Tower tuning, Jailer’s Gauntlet Layer 5+ tuning, and requirements for the 278 conduit item.

—Insistence on hard rules for gear progression as if WoW were a sport where not everyone is allowed to score a goal, instead of a game where everyone can win sometimes on some level.

@Pawgwalker-dalaran

Casual doesn’t imply bad, it just implies limited time or interest.

Yes, casual can refer to limited time or interest. Just because you restrict yourself to one meaning of a word doesn’t mean that all speakers of that language are going to do the same just to accommodate you.

In the context of Shadowlands, being casual in either context is bad due to the necessity of filling up Great Vault options by doing a large quantity of difficult content.

@Adilith-frostmourne

Some of us just don’t want to be a bother to other people when we group so we can be helpful.

Yes. So that’s why I don’t raid unless I am overgeared and know the mechanics like the back of my hand.

@Sarama-firetree

So this big group of casuals is too hardcore to run with each other, but not geared enough to get into other’s groups?

All it takes is one non-casual to get into a group and make things toxic, or quit mid-key.

And although there is a wide range of meanings to the word “casual”, some players avoid premade groups for competitive content because they have no interest in such content or because they have been burned before. So although premade group finder may seem to be full of competitive players, it is not representative of the entire population, which is largely casual in some sense.

@Rabititus-shuhalo

It is what it is, just like Korthia was, how do you make the open world experience better?

A wider variety of questing content and the inclusion of weapons and trinkets in the Cypher System would have made Zereth Mortis feel complete, to begin with. Events like Devourer assaults or Mawsworn invasions could have been added. PvP quests or events could have been added.

It is obvious that devs had the Zereth Mortis zone asset but very little dev resources to flesh it out other than add treasures and rares, and implement a limited number and type of quests.

@Silverleigh-drakthul

Please stop confusing casual and solo.

I have posted numerous times that there is a difference between the two, but there is an overlap when it comes to Shadowlands content because you need to be both hardcore and in a group to experience meaningful power progression.

I usually say “solo and casual” to specify that both groups are being adversely affected by Shadowlands gear gatekeeping, but I guess that is not enough.

@Maryanne-lightnings-blade

Low quality proof, there’s even some graphs showing the % clear for raids have never been lower than now

The biggest issue for RaiderIO is that it apparently only includes players who have earned at least 200 points in the current or any previous Mythic+ season, or have reached at least 3 kills on any difficulty above LFR.

We don’t have numbers, but there is definitely a large portion of players who barely touch M+ or Normal raiding and aren’t going to be included in RaiderIO.

So RaiderIO can only hint at the average hardcore player rather than the average player overall.

[Adilith-frostmourne]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Yes. So that’s why I don’t raid unless I am overgeared and know the mechanics like the back of my hand.

got news for you gear wont help you. No amount of gear will help a bad player become better. I’d take a barely geared good player over an overgeared bad player anytime of the day

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Adilith-frostmourne

got news for you gear wont help you. No amount of gear will help a bad player become better.

Again, what makes you think I am a bad player? Because I am so critical of Shadowlands development philosophies?

Competitive, elitist players love Shadowlands because it stokes their egos. But whether I am a good or bad player, I can see that it is not wise for an MMO to decimate its playerbase because it seeks the approval of its top players.

[Adilith-frostmourne]

simple because you think gear will fix all your problems

[Brewa-hyjal]

You can ignore the Torghast timer completely, it only gives a small amount of bonus score that isn’t needed to 5-star it.

A lot of us were talking about this when Torghast II came out and people were freaking out over the time bonus, we posted screenshots of where we were 4- and 5-starring Torghast with an hour run to completely run out the timer and then some.

[Magnificent-wyrmrest-accord]

just going by forums, lfg/pug warriors

and if they cant find a group for what they want to do, they ask IsThIs FaCtIoN iMbAlAnCe. instead of joining a progression guild

[Siersha-proudmoore]

Id say there is no “typical” player, there are more players who do not push Esport style play than there ARE, however that doesnt make any one typical.

WOW shouldnt cater to any specific style, all should be viable, and designed for.

[Anisiiru-turalyon]

Fish, the sole bastion of good solo content these days.

[Rabititus-shuhalo (Rabititus)]

@Eleusia-myzrael

It is obvious that devs had the Zereth Mortis zone asset but very little dev resources to flesh it out other than add treasures and rares, and implement a limited number and type of quests.

There is a reason, kind of a shake up in their office when years of abuse came to light, walk outs, firings, and restructuring management. Are you really surprised this zone with simple geometric shapes as terrain also lacks in content? Shadowlands was never going to finish strong. Hopefully their new work is a home run.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Eleusia-myzrael

Excessive use of timers in traditional RPG content like dungeons, and content like Torghast where not all players and specs are wired for speed

2 instances of timers, neither of which requires a group to actually beat the timer for most of the rewards.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Insistence on hard rules for gear progression as if WoW were a sport where not everyone is allowed to score a goal, instead of a game where everyone can win sometimes on some level

There’s different levels for everyone. It’s exactly a game where everyone can win sometimes on some level.

@Eleusia-myzrael

being casual in either context is bad due to the necessity of filling up Great Vault options by doing a large quantity of difficult content.

You can fill raid and m+ rows with LFR and untimed +2s. Hardly difficult content. And if you don’t want to do that, you can WQ for normal raid level gear and a full relic level tier set.

@Eleusia-myzrael

All it takes is one non-casual to get into a group and make things toxic, or quit mid-key

Casual players can be jerks too.

@Eleusia-myzrael

some players avoid premade groups for competitive content because they have no interest in such content or because they have been burned before

Premade groups aren’t only for competitive content.

@Eleusia-myzrael

So although premade group finder may seem to be full of competitive players, it is not representative of the entire population, which is largely casual in some sense

It’s definitely not full of competitive players. You don’t have to be competitive to use LFG. It’s actually excellent for casual content because you can clearly list the casualness of your run.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Rabititus-shuhalo

There is a reason, kind of a shake up in their office when years of abuse came to light, walk outs, firings, and restructuring management.

Yes, and the COVID situation may have delayed development a little at first (although not the main cause).

@Rabititus-shuhalo

Shadowlands was never going to finish strong. Hopefully their new work is a home run.

It is speculated that Blizzard realized quickly that Shadowlands was going to be a flop, and diverted dev resources to the next expansion.

In that case, the small team remaining dedicated to Shadowlands got the assets for zones and enemies (which had been made far in advance) and had to make expansion patches out of it. They also would have had to piece a story together with the few cinematics they had.

[Trustlvlfour-zuljin]

The average player:

• Doesn’t raid.
• Doesn’t m+
• Doesn’t do rated pvp.
• Permenantly ignores borrowed power systems the moment they take more than 10min to understand.

I have spoken, It is therefore law. None dare challenge me.

[Streetsham-malganis (Streetsham)]

@Dreadsurge-sargeras

Counterpoint: what purpose does it serve the hardcore players to get much worse rewards for completing the same stuff?

My thought process was its not really because of a “benefit” for hardcore but “because” hardcore players will go to the extent to run splits to the point where a single character is fully decked out in a week or two, that they had to implement such a feature.

@Dreadsurge-sargeras

Counterpoint again: Nobody likes this, least of all the 1% Blizzard allegedly caters to. Recruitment is obscenely difficult at the moment and this is a big reason why.

None of these things are implemented to the benefit of the top 1%. This doesn’t cater to us; it just tries to slow us down even though we actively hate being slowed down just as much as the other 99% do.

First, I believe I meant cross-realm, not cross-faction my mistake sorry. Also Like before my reasoning is not because it benefits the top 1% but why does it revolve around the top 1%? Why can it not be something more engaging for example… If we can get 500 horde and 500 alliance guilds globally to clear the raid on any difficulty then cross realm/faction is enabled.

My overall annoyance is not that blizzard makes systems to “benefit” hardcore players but that they make changes to some systems “because” of hardcore players and not the average player. I understand that blizz is trying to prevent degenerative gameplay which tends to occur at the top end due to how competitive it is, but most of the methods they go about preventing it ends up making the overall experience miserable for the rest.

[Firstdisco-hyjal]

What, then, would a below average player be?

[Trustlvlfour-zuljin]

A Vulpera player.

[Garvash-thrall]

Ever since I returned after skipping all of shadowlands, I Just log in to do my lfr and the weekly shuffle/random bg quest then ether log out for the day, work on leveling my alts hoping that one will be worth becoming my main or run old raids to try and get the tusks of mannoroth on my 2 lvl 50 plate wearers.

Does this make me casual or trash?

[Dreadsurge-sargeras]

@Streetsham-malganis

My thought process was its not really because of a “benefit” for hardcore but “because” hardcore players will go to the extent to run splits to the point where a single character is fully decked out in a week or two, that they had to implement such a feature.

There are maybe 140 people on the planet willing to go that far. Even the vast majority of these so-called “hardcore” players will never do this, ever.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

Who knows.

Old Blizzard made games for people that love playing games. The kind of people who would want to go to Blizzcon and nerd out.

Now who do they make the games for? People who barely even want to log in?

[Gaugamela-moon-guard]

@Adilith-frostmourne

Started a m0 to get a key then use the key to get into m+.

Not sure if you, or anyone else is aware but you can talk to one of the dudes beside the vault in Oribos and get an M+ key automatically without having to do an M0.

[Marside-stormrage]

The average player quit and went to Ff14 because it better respected their time.

WoW is for no-life hardcore carry-skips only.

And folks who make this game their life.