So, Slice and Dice

Classes Rogue
1

I’ve been sitting on this thought for a while now. Wanted to see how Alpha will go, but damn are things slow with these class changes, so I’m just gonna go ahead.

So basically, Outlaw is getting SnD back to somewhat shift focus away from RtB, and Sin is getting SnD back to proc poisons even more often. Meanwhile, Sub is getting SnD back… to do what?

Is this basic bxtch version of SnD just supposed to make us proc Shadow Techniques more often, and screw over the reliability of Echoing Reprimand even more? Like, if they don’t give Sub back the outright energy regen on SnD, what’s the point of even having this button back? They do remember that SnD was more than just attack speed, and had different strengths for each spec, right?

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That’s why we need to campaign for Blizz to make sure Energetic Recovery is in place instead of Shadow Techniques.

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Its useful for Sub due to the fact that we can proc poisons more often (poison proc% got nerfed)
Its useful due to Shadow Techniques passive for energy regen

This makes Slice & Dice have mechanics tied to it that make it useful for more than just “attack speed” - Meaning it is still an ability with multiple strengths for Sub.

  • Would like to point out that i’d MUCH PREFER Energetic Recovery passive over Shadow Techniques passive; Having Energetic Recovery would promote a Hit-&-Run playstyle like Sub is SUPPOSED to have.
    However, (Especially in a PVP pov) with Cheap Shot being nerfed to cost more energy, even though we don’t have Energetic Recovery and we DO have Shadow Techniques, having slice & dice intertwined with shadow techniques will still feel quite useful during Dance goes, where a lot of our globals go into Cheap Shot.

All this means that Slice & Dice still provides planning & forethought, which are two things Sub in particular is DESPERATELY in need of.

tldr;

  • Returning Slice & Dice back to Sub is an amazing change because Sub used to have a good amount of finishers that did something other than damage (Slice & Dice / Recup / Expose Armor, etc) - Currently Sub literally has NONE of these finishers anymore, so bringing back a finisher such as Slice & Dice makes strides in returning Sub’s original & best design - a spec revolved around preemption, planning, forethought, execution.
    Just wish they’d go that last mile needed to return Energetic Recovery passive rather than Shadow Techniques passive.
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lol Sub’s kit has no scaling or interaction with poisons whatsoever. It’s huge for Sin, but for Sub, applying poison more often is like, what, a 1% increase in damage?

Also, Shadow Technique feels like crap in PVE. Always have, always will. It’s nowhere near as effective as a flat energy recovery buff, and I don’t think we should compromise at all with Blizzard when it comes to the strength of our spec.

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I’m eager/hopeful snd scales with mastery again. Having 0.9s attack speed per weapon was really neat (though not exactly the most engaging/subtle).

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Was thinking about this and let’s say sub doesn’t have energetic recovery and has what look like vanilla poison proc rate… Oh what is the attack speed bonus on slice? 30% like vanilla?

If all these are true the only way they could get competitive damage out of the build is with monster backsabs… Then I remembered shadow dance exists (been playing a lot of classic)

So that means they are probably going to push all the damage into dance somehow. Likely that backstab is kinda like hemo use to be, just auto swing filler.

Maybe a big eviscerate crit?

That’s the only way I can see them making damage, but it’s blizzard they will figure out some way to make what could be an exciting class unimaginably boring.

And I was thinking hey maybe energy management may get exciting again and realized that’s not likely, they will even find a way to make combo points feel boring.

Sorry for the rollercoaster ride of thoughts, but I a wrote this as I was thinking it. I guess I’m just way too cynical now.

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I get it.

Too much if the game revolves around making combat fun instead of making the game fun around combat…

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Could be, maybe their problems are even more convoluted than that even?

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I’m not sure. They used to devote a lot of energy to each class and tried to make separate specs feel like completely new games. Now they’re just busy trying to balance classes around the same theoretical damage/healing output, and THE GAME gets lost behind the idea of “performance” within the game…

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Yeah, that is the sad truth. It’s actually one of the things I actually really enjoy about classic wow, the classes are so very different and that feels really good even if that comes at the cost of performance in certain areas.

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Higher chance to apply Crippling / Mind Numbing in PVP is VERY important.
Also, Wound Poison is now a STACKING buff, also paired with the fact that poisons have a lower proc chance in shadowlands = Slice & Dice’s attack speed will allow us to have higher chance to proc poisons which is integral in PVP.

Hey man, I ABSOLUTELY think that Energetic Recovery passive would be WAY BETTER for us than Shadow Techniques passive.

However, when walking on eggshells especially with Blizzard’s history of removing abilities, it’s not necessarily “compromising at all with blizzard” by being complacent, its more of the idea that Slice & Dice adds more positives being in the sub kit than it does negatives, so complaining about it due to a passive that is tied to SnD could give blizzard the wrong impression then remove things again.
Even in a world where we have Shadow Techniques passive over Energetic Recovery, Slice & Dice is still quite useful to have.

Basically a tldr - I’m not one that wants to be complacent and be compromising with blizzard, but you have to consider:

  • Sub only has TWO finishers atm, BOTH being damage; We used to have MULTIPLE finishers that all had interesting & unique uses. This means that Sub is in DESPERATE need of another finisher that does something else than just damage… Which Slice & Dice plays perfect into.

  • Since poisons have a lower proc chance and arguably our most important poison in PVP (Wound Poison) is now a stacking effect, meaning it needs to proc even more than the others to gain equal benefit, means that having that additional attack speed from Slice is very useful.

  • Since Cheap Shot got raised to 50 energy per use rather than 40 energy, this makes it to where any additional energy we can get during Dance windows is extremely welcomed, which again, the Slice & Dice / Shadow Techniques connection allowing us to regain energy during the fight will be vital when you consider that A LOT of our globals during Dance is cheap-shot.
    I’ve never been a big fan of Shadow Techniques either, it feeling like crap in PVE is a similar junction to how it feels in PVP, however this passive still has its uses & with the addition of Slice & Dice back to our Sub kit, Shadow Techniques should feel a bit better from Slice too.

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I get that Blizzard is kinda garbage at understanding the playerbase, but the way I see it, the problem of Shadow Techniques and SnD is a big deal.

First, having Shadow Technique be our main source of energy is a hugely problematic concept on its own. For now, we’re still mostly playing the Legion Sub, but the problem is, Legion’s Sub had like a million different sources of energy regen, and Shadow Techniques was easily the weakest of the bunch. Legion’s DFA Sub in particular also had really well-defined windows of bursting and pooling, so energy wasn’t as big of a problem. If Blizz refuses to give us something else, and also refuses to bring back a viable burst spell, then Sub will continue being an incomplete spec. We’ll just keep relying on the borrowed power of each patch just to have a functional rotation, and when those powers happen to be not ideal, the entire spec will just flop and be useless all expansion long.

Second, regarding Shadow Techniques itself, it’s just bad design to have bursts of energy tagged onto our passive combo point generation, since it presents a lose-lose dichotomy. One situation is what we currently have, where the energy from Shadow Techniques flat out sucks, because passive combo point generation realistically can’t be allowed to proc that often, and that drags down the energy regen. The other extreme is where we recover like a quarter of our energy bar every time Shadow Techniques procs, but that leaves us energy-starved without the proc and overcapping when the proc does happen, because now Shadow Techniques is double OP and you better believe that Blizz will gut its proc chance. Shadow Techniques should at the very least be reworked, to where it gives a steady stream of bonus energy instead, and then maintaining good SnD uptime would make that stream permanent.

Finally, regarding SnD and poisons, I think I’ll make my stance clear–I’m not at all a fan of Sub having to return to poisons for their slows. The promised class fantasy of Sub is basically a melee Warlock/SPriest, right? They’re supposed to be unlike the normal rogues, who just fight dirty by poking you in the eyes and kicking you in the balls. Their mastery over the subtle magical elements in the general Rogue’s kit–like Step and Cloak–should be a cut above the rest. So, why do they have to count on base things like poison? They should be pumping harmful magic into their enemies instead. I would love for the slow element to continue being a part of Rupture, and I think it’s totally believable that someone could curse you with some sort of nasty stuff while they’re literally slicing you open and making you bleed all over the floor. It’d also be really nice to have a slowing bleed, so that it can’t be dispelled/Cloaked like Nightblade.

Also, the ramping poison is a flat nerf, and I have no idea why anyone would ever accept that. Rogues are already less mobile than DH and Monks, do we really need nerfs to our ability to keep those classes still as well？

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If poison procs increased energy regeneration instead of bleeds, I think assassination would benefit more from maintaining slice and dice than it currently does on alpha.

Oh well.

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No, their class fantasy for Subtlety was a “Master of Shadows/Ninja that teleports from place to place”. The whole shadow magic theme was kind of tacked on and frankly I always thought a lot of it was from the Legion Artifact. Our “borrowed power” theme in Legion was basically a pair of shadow magic daggers.

That would be pretty bad, I think. You’d basically be taking away guaranteed energy regen for RNG energy regen. They could probably just bring back Cut to the Chase.

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Mists Assassination was actually super fun because you could bleed & poison multiple target and that added burst to your direct damage. So much for having fun eh?

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OK, so Sub is a master of shadows, but there’s also no magic involved? These guys just teleport to an enemy’s shadow/deals shadow damage/shake off magical debuffs through sheer muscle and force of will?

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I didn’t mean we use zero magic. But, it has always been extremely minor. Shadowstep and Cloak of Shadows used to be pretty much be the only things that could be argued as magical before. But, in Legion, they added a lot more through the daggers. They added Goremaw’s Bite, Shadow Nova, and Akaari’s Soul. Damage through shadow magic was a big theme with those daggers. The only baseline shadow magic things we had in Legion were Nightblade and you could argue Shadow Blades, but during Legion, it only made your autoattacks deal extra shadow damage. In my mind, a Rogue doesn’t use magic for damage. We use it for utility/deception.

That all said, there are people who do like using magic offensively and I’ve often thought we could have a talent that was dedicated to that. Instead of Gloomblade, it could be Shadow Mastery or something that altered not just Backstab, but a variety of abilities to deal shadow magic instead. But, maybe that is too much for a talent.

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All three specs of rogues have access to basic Step and Cloak sorts of magic, though. As a class, we’ve actually been magic users for a while now, and I’m pretty sure that Sub Rogues are supposed to go above and beyond in terms of using those magic. Maybe not on the same level of Paladins and DKs, but they should definitely be able to do some curse-type stuff, right?

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If it were up to me we’d have Energetic Recovery passive back over Shadow Techniques passive as i’m not a fan of Shadow Techniques whatsoever.
I think that having Energetic Recovery to passively give us energy for having Slice & Dice up would suite into the Sub playstyle better than Shadow Techniques passive would.

However, since we are getting Slice & Dice back, I think that having Slice & Dice back (especially for Sub) will feel way better IN our kit than without.
It will make Shadow Techniques feel a bit better too.
I can understand frustration revolving around Shadow Techniques though.

tldr; I’m just tired of having next to 0 finisher’s that do something other than damage, so having Slice & Dice is like getting a breath of fresh air, ontop of being an oldschool iconic ability, it has multiple uses to it, including energy regen (even if it does happen to come from shadow technique passive and not energetic recovery)

Because this “shadow magic warlock” theme should have never happened in the first place. It’s a joke to what it means to be a Rogue and frankly an insult to the people who have invested years of time into the class & more specifically, the spec (dating back to before Legion when shadow-theme happened).

Poisons, as well as multiple other things (including having multi - use finishers, a reason why I love Slice & Dice return) is one of the defining-features of being a Rogue.

  • WHY shouldn’t Sub rely on poisons? One of the key points of class design in Shadowlands was that there was too much disconnection between specs than there was connection. There were too many things that made specs different than made them similar.
  • When I picked a Rogue, I want to be a ROGUE, and the spec that I choose should enhance my playstyle as a Rogue in different, but not astronomical way. THIS is why Sub should rely on poisons, same as the other specs.

No, Sub should be doing ruthless sneak-attacks that jam someone up, hence AMBUSH, BACKSTAB, RUPTURE; Not this weird warlock-wannabe Shadowstrike. Our dabble in magic should come from Cloak Of Shadows, Shadowstep, Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades. There should be some hints of shadow-magic but it should NOT overwhelm and define the spec to the extent that it currently does.

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lol I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the SnD thing. Personally, I want to have fun with my class too, but I’m more concerned about having the tools to top DPS meters than anything else. My concerns aren’t about the “feel” of the class; I’m just pissed because Shadow Technique is obviously impossible to balance, and SnD alone probably won’t be a big enough boost to Sub’s strength.

Regarding Sub’s class fantasy, though, I honestly find it hilarious that people are fine with SHADOWstep, Cloak of SHADOWS, and SHADOW Dance, but not stuff like “Shadow” Strike and "Night"blade. Like, all three specs of rogue use a bit of magic, and all three specs jump people with “SURPRISE you’re dead” from stealth. Sub has to go further than that to be distinctive as a spec that revolves more heavily around Stealth and openers. If Sub also has to stoop to something as basic as poison, and Combat/Outlaw doesn’t even have a bit of extra range when they’re swinging around two massive Thunderfury Artifacts, then is there even a thematic point in picking a spec?

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