So, Slice and Dice

Classes Rogue
21

For one, shadowstep, cloak, shadow dance are all buttons we’ve had for YEARS.

For two, replacing Fan of Knives & Ambush for “Shuriken Storm” & “Shadowstrike” just to make us more like a dark magic warlock doesn’t make any sense.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on all of this, but it more or less sounds like you misunderstand the meaning of being a Rogue.

If your Assa, you should still be a ROGUE; Just as assa you should have a higher emphasis and potency on poisons and bleeds.

If your Combat, you should still be a ROGUE; Just as combat you should have a higher emphasis on being that spec that can be upfront, jarring, stand toe to toe with warriors and still come out on top

If your Sub, you should still be a ROGUE; Just as Sub you should be that guy who relies more heavily on preemption, thinking ahead, hit & running, and most of all, stealth/sdance. Does that mean that Sub should have a bit higher emphasis on dabbling in Shadow-Magic? Sure, but again, should NOT overwhelm the spec to the point that playing sub feels more like your playing a seperate class itself rather than being a ROGUE.

Again, all rogue specs should have all these rogue-defining abilities that we’ve had over the years (slice & dice, poisons, gouge, shiv, rupture, cloak, shadowstep) etc.
What spec you choose should ENHANCE a specific playstyle (a master of poisons, a toe-to-toe brawler, or a stealthy prowler who’s quiet), choosing a spec should NOT essentially make you a different class altogether.

3 Likes
22

Dude, just because something has been around for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re automatically good, and it sure as hell doesn’t mean that they aren’t clear indications of rogues using magic. I fully understand your point that the shadow theme overpowering Sub’s entire kit is your concern, but when you say things like this, it really sounds like “we accept old shadow abilities because they’re old, and reject new shadow abilities because they’re new.”

And honestly, I think you’re right that I don’t share your definition of being a Rogue. I’m not nearly as attached to any specific spell, aside from maybe the really major CDs like Vendetta and SD, and I’m super happy as long as a vague class fantasy and a general pattern of play is preserved. I just really don’t like poison because technically any average Joe could dip his weapons in some nasty acid goo, so having to use poison makes me feel like my character is less powerful and special.

1 Like
23

Just because rogues can be invisible and teleport, you think they use magic? How droll.

/sarcasm

Also, you nailed it when you pointed out this thought : “we are okay with these shadow spells because they are old, but these shadow spells are stupid because they are new.”

24

It’s not so much this.

Its more that we had Shadow Blades, Shadow Dance, Shadowstep, Cloak of Shadows, all cool abilities, all abilities we had for a long time, and werent consistent buttons as they are all CD’s, but then blizzard decided to take it TOO far by replacing multiple buttons that we’ve had forever and themetically fit being a Rogue, just to be able to make us more of a “shadowy warlock”.

Point being is that the shadowy buttons we had before we had a good number of, they are all iconic abilities, and they didn’t replace other abilities to arrive in our kit in the first place, the same cannot be said for shadowstrike/shuriken storm, etc.
I wouldn’t mind gaining another shadow ability if it wasn’t at the expense of replacing an ability that a very high number of Rogues have loved over the years.

I mean your opinion is yours I suppose, i’m just making the argument that having poisons on our blades to do specific tasks has always been a staple of what it means to be a Rogue, and that is regardless of spec.
Not every little thing needs to be this complicated thing that “average-joes” cant do. Poisons are literally ROGUE.

3 Likes
25

I miss being able to load up a slice n dice then jump into combat, daggers shanking away as I used premed-shadowstep ambush, eviscerate, get a rupture in there and Prep the whole onslaught again. the poisons and bleeds ticking away and when your ambush was blasting suckers and eviscerate actually did things, you felt super subtle vanishing away laughing at some poor sucker who didn’t know what happened and why he’s bleeding all over and in need of life support. good times.

5 Likes
26

A rogue is a thief and ne’er-do-well.

On a base level, I wholly agree it has nothing to do with magic fundamentally, and shouldn’t oft toe so far over the fantasy line it loses the classic RPG appeal. A highly talented rogue makes their preternatural skill SEEM magical - whether they actually are or aren’t shouldn’t be a question, as how the rogue achieves these qualities ought to be a matter of INTRIGUE not FACT.

If magic makes the smoke and mirrors easier, it’s good. But it may not be dark magic as much as it is misdirection or simple tricks of the trade.

Traditionally speaking, rogues do not rely on magic innately, and the melee mage is perhaps a better fantasy for enhancement shaman or unholy death knight… That said, there should be some wiggle room for seeing what’s real or what’s fantastic.

The quote that started it all:

This struck chords from multiple reasons.

First, vanilla sub had nothing related to shadow magic. Preparation and Premeditation were strictly non-magical qualities, with a majority of the subtlety kit rotating around the improvement of non-combat traits; stealth, utility, crowd control. Every skill mentioned was an addition in subsequent expansions.

Second, the promised class identity is noted in my preceding remark. What sub specifically references is a spec identity, not a class identity. The design team explicitly indicated a desire to reduce this gap as a goal with the unpruning.

Lastly, it is a deplorable faux pas to compare any class/spec only relative another. Saying warlock is “demon mage” fails to grasp the depth and varied nature of the classes. Likewise, Death Knight is not so simply an “evil paladin” or “magical warrior” - they are deeply unique identities which foundationally require distinct vantage points to grasp holistically.

5 Likes
27

It’s what they do that’s the problem. I don’t mind using magic. In fact, I believe(in fantasy worlds in general) that someone that doesn’t use magic would never win vs someone who does. Magic is super overpowered. But, I don’t think we should be using it in the same ways a Warlock uses it. Using magic defensively through Cloak of Shadows or utility via teleporting is fine. Basically, a Rogue should use magic to assist in the back stabbing, not in place of the back stabbing. :stuck_out_tongue:

4 Likes
28

Yeah a Sub Rogue applying a shadow DoT doesn’t make sense.

One that is more of the fantasy of an Unholy DK and also Sub Rogues are known for bleeds.

29

Bleeds now wholly belong to assassination.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=76803/mastery-potent-assassin
Increases damage of your poisons and bleeds.

Which goes to my point that there is a lack of vision to what rogue even is, as they all try to create some fantasy apart from the traditional thief and careful strategic combatant, seeking to always guarantee the upper hand through guile and treachery…

Once upon a time Sub gained bleeds after the positive feedback on hemo-spam. Thematically, I agree it belongs with assassination if they have this emphasis on poison, truly rounding out their assassin kit. But that also means Sub is left with a vacuum that seems to have no real direction or purpose filled back in.

The whole issue cascades from the philosophy shift that your talent pages were ways to customize your playstyle to specializations which are exclusive reflections of combat only and tuned according to those combat-based differentiations. The “RPG” quality exchanged for an “Action” design.

30

Back in Classic, it was generally about Stealth. Almost every talent interacted with Stealth in some way. Be it buffing an opener, adding a Stealth ability, granting more frequent access to Vanish and of course buffing the Stealth skill itself. But, incorporating that kind of theme into a PVE is pretty limited. That’s probably what lead to the Shadow Dance change in Legion.

Sometimes, I really like the idea of us having more frequent access to Stealth. And I mean the invisibility, not openers. But, that’s a really touchy thing in PVP and can cause some awkward situations in PVE.

They could go back to how is was before with openers, too. Shadowstrike should deal more damage and crit more often than Ambush. Cheap Shot and Garrote(if we ever get that back) should generate more combo points. And Sap could uh. Well, Subtlety’s buffed it in a few ways throughout time. Taking those changes away from Assassination and Outlaw might be bad.
I also think Shadowstrike should be added to our mastery.

1 Like
31

Yeah they can give back Sub some openers but Blizz has been resistant to that for some reason.

32

You make a really good point that the new Shadow Abilities are replacing old ones. At this point, I think it would probably be better for everybody to have all the new “Shadow” stuff as glyph options.

Poisons are still lame though, lol.

1 Like
33

Yes - we seem to share similar perspective on it. First playthrough in almost every RPG for me is the sneaky thief. The issue for sub design goes all the way back to this:

I still believe the unique vantage that sub had was positional effects on abilities.

There’s a mob that uses Backstab, but when done to the face, the player bleeds. It’s very clever (the flavor text also adds some humor) and showcased a great potential design direction: SUBTLE shifts in character position could drastically change how rogue skills interact and function.

Designing the spec around this would see big gaps between situations and players, but would allow a nice diverse spec design that fits well into the other two existing themes of assassin and combat (outlaw).

Change summary (sub):

  • Mastery increases the potency of your abilities with positional effects
  • Gouge back in the kit
  • Ambush gains positional effect (“Shadowstrike”)
  • New ability: Decoy - Rank 1 leaves behind a decoy with 20% of the rogue’s hp which taunts targets that attack the rogue for 6s. Rank 2 the decoy performs some attacks and grants the rogue stealth for 2s. This stealth does not drop combat.
  • Talents to add positional effects to Eviscerate (therefore also gaining the mastery benefit), Armor Pen to targets affected by Rupture, and Decoy chaining additional clones.
  • Using Pickpocket grants Ambush and Backstab double the mastery benefit for 10s (usable in combat via Decoy, and procs from targets that have already been pickpocketed).
3 Likes
34

I really don’t think there’s any wiggle room to the questions of whether or not Rogues use magic, lol. I was being a little coy before, but I’ll be serious now. Specifically countering magical effects and literal teleportation is pretty impossible through pure physical skill. Rogues aren’t magicians with elaborate setups; they’re defying physics wherever and whenever, so when something supernatural happens, then they have supernatural abilities.

Like I said to that other guy, how things were in Vanilla should not dictate the direction of live server Rogues, and just because Step and Cloak are BC abilities, doesn’t mean they’re somehow worse. The rogue currently at level 120 is the accumulation of every single expansion, and anyone who solely wants to return Rogues to Vanilla should probably just go play Classic servers.

Finally, comparing classes relative to each other is the easiest thing to understand, no? Saying “melee warlock” is shorter and less stiff than saying “the masters of the shadows who strike unseen, and some claim the art of subtlety looks like malevolent shadow magic”. (That’s copy-pasted from the Legion class preview page, in case the block of text seems confusing)

2 Likes
35

“looks like” leaves some room for the imagination to run wild

If you believe it’s magic, then hold that opinion. If someone thinks it’s not, hold that opinion. I like to think there is an in between that isn’t simply called magic or mundane.

36

Lmao yeah, Blizzard’s website says “look like”, but then you actually play a Sub and everything is either “Night” or “Shadow” or “Darkness”. If they wanted to make it ambiguous, then I think they failed pretty miserably.

Regarding this, I think I might just be an elitist jerk. I 100% want there to be a clear line between the supernatural and physical skill, so that I can be on the supernatural side. When I play a character in a video game, I’m expecting that character to do things that are objectively impossible for me to do IRL, and I was never a fan of the whole Batman archetype. Why be a guy who trains until his heart explodes just to be “peak human”, when you can be a guy who is flat out “superhuman”?

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37

basically this sums up what i’ve been saying

i miss it too.

2 Likes
38

I personally don’t like the notion that rogue is absolutely zero magic, always! but that initially, rogue has an arsenal of magic equipment at their disposal. Cloak of Shadows, for example, I imagine as an actual physical object, much like how Pistol Shot or Crimson Vial pulls a piece of equipment from seemingly nowhere. Over time, I like to believe some of the magic from this equipment finds a way to imbue the supernatural into the hero - but any magical quality is not something they possess as some gift or talent.

Also, I like to think that being quick and clever (dang, maybe I should play Vulpera) about combat and deceit overcomes the disadvantages of not having a “superhuman” faculty. If I want to be super innately, I would play a separate class like Shaman, Mage, or Monk (the chi-magic of monk took me a long time to get over because it was a bit too “special”).

Personally, I think it all goes deeper for me. I want to believe that the extraordinary is within reach of anyone. It’s not a matter of station or caste - it can be found often by surprise over the journey our lives take. Even a desperate rogue can suddenly find themselves exploring a mystical and expansive universe, and becoming something “more”.

I root for the boring team because that’s what I am - rather average, but hopefully full of surprises.

39

I mean, it’s like that line from The Incredibles. If anyone’s special, no one is. If anyone can just become super awesome purely by working a bit and living life out, then it’s not really that awesome. The word is literally “extra-ordinary”, more than what is normal, different and better than the average masses at a fundamental level.

At some level, I feel for the people who want the old Sub back. But, I’d almost much rather there be at least one spec that isn’t in “the boring team” for Rogues, where fighting with poisoned weapons is no longer necessary, because you have access to something way worse.

40

Exactly, kinda like ninja are reported to have magic, but really dont, its all just insane amounts of slight of hand and trickery.