BM was perfectly capable of getting glad almost all of BFA, though it did get overnerfed in season 1. People play MSV because it’s actually fun in pvp. I don’t expect you to understand that because looking at your account you don’t even participate in pvp.
What’s your hunter’s name, then? Because all I’m seeing on check-pvp for you is your DH.
Again, you keep asserting these things about what “people” feel without any evidence. You are, however, correct that I do not PvP. I’m inferring this from statistics, like these ones.
My “main” for BfA was my DH for Uldir and BoD, I skipped Palace entirely, and my rogue with a light side of my hunter (as I started settling on it for my SL main) for Ny’alotha. My hunter, however, is the one I’ve historically raided on the most, and is by a substantial margin my most-played character:
Sounds to me like you don’t actually have any real experience with MSV then, as I suspected.
This hunter I’m posting from was made in Legion and has 332 days /played.
If your hunter is your historic “main” and most played character and only has 140 days played, I don’t really get the impression that you’re very experienced at the class.
Actually, I’m rather convinced those time played stats got mucked at some point, because I’m rather certain it was at 170 something in early WoD, before playing that entire expansion on my hunter.
Hunter representation in pvp has always been low, in every single season in the history of the game, including in seasons where we’ve been busted OP, because most hunters are simply not that into pvp, and it’s more punishing of individual mistakes than most classes due to the primary CC being a skillshot.
MSV is beloved by hunters that actually pvp. The opinions of hunters who do not pvp are not that important on the topic of pvp, especially if they don’t know that we’ve always been low representation.
I can do that too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
And this isn’t just about PvP.
Argument from fallacy only works if he’s arguing that because you committed a fallacy, your argument is necessarily false. He’s not arguing that at all. He’s simply saying your arguments about my experience are not relevant.
MSV is quite literally designed with pvp in mind, not pve. You might not like it, but that’s what it is. It’s a pvp spec.
[citation needed]
you can look up your own stats about the history of our representation, I’m not gonna hold your hand because I don’t care if you believe me or not; you don’t pvp, it’s quite brazen to declare yourself more knowledgeable than someone who does.
[citation needed]
I main MSV and I love it. Every MSV player I know loves it. I have never met a single high xp and well geared MSV player that did not passionately enjoy the spec. Dillon, a very well known hunter multiglad, adores MSV.
How about you “cite” me some high xp pvp hunters that don’t like MSV?
Or is the burden of proof only on me, even though I’m clearly better versed on the landscape of pvp than you are?
He’s just doing the college sophomore “I spotted a fallacy!” move, something most people grow out of by their mid 20s.
Your lack of experience in pvp is absolutely relevant when we’re talking about a spec that was mechanically designed to excel in pvp and is adored almost exclusively by people to whom pvp is the primary end-game.
MSV might simply not be designed for you.
not everything will be
Then it shouldn’t exist, because PvP is a small side-game. There hasn’t been a notion of a spec specifically and only for PvP since like vanilla or TBC.
You asserted it, so it’s your responsibility to provide evidence for it.
Or to go back to linking: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
That’s 1 data point.
That’s a few more.
That’s not actually a data point.
That’s a data point.
None of those support your assertion that all or even most hunters that PvP “adore MSV.” They simply support a claim that some MSV hunters adore it, and that’s already well-known, from how rabidly the tiny base of MSV players try to defend it.
I don’t need to. You made the claim, you back it with evidence. Again:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
Yes, the burden of proof is on you, because you made the claim. See how that works?
[citation needed]
You can argue that MSV does excel at PvP, but you’ve yet to present evidence that it was specifically designed to and intended to be a PvP spec.
[citation needed]
You’re not getting this thing that you can’t claim things, especially things using adjectives like “adore” and “beloved”, without evidence. It makes your entire position look like BS, because you keep feeling the need to use extreme adjectives and yet keep trying to force others to find evidence for you.
Also, since you cited it, I’m not sure you really have much authority to talk about this even from the perspective of PVP…
https://check-pvp.fr/us/Emerald%20Dream/Scabber
Seems a bit short-sighted to try to pull the PvP cred card when your PvP scorecard is so…mediocre.
Far more people participate in pvp casually than raid.
“PVP is a side game!” has always been some garbage that low status raiders tell themselves, PVP is the historic lifeblood of this game and the drop in the games population can be tied to the decreasing quality of life experienced by people who primarily PVP.
PVPers in the last few years have in fact been asking to have certain specs returned to ‘focus’ as pvp-oriented specs; namely, people are quite tired of seeing assassination rogues in pvp and pine for the days of sub being THE pvp spec. Likewise, people are tired of fire and wanted frost back.
You asserted it, so it’s your responsibility to provide evidence for it.
The post you linked to asserts the same thing, that MSV is the most popular spec of the least popular class in pvp.
I’m simply telling you that we have always been the least popular class in rated pvp, though we’re quite common in casual pvp (probably because most hunters are quite casual players for whatever reason)
None of those support your assertion that all or even most hunters that PvP “adore MSV.” They simply support a claim that some MSV hunters adore it, and that’s already well-known, from how rabidly the tiny base of MSV players try to defend it.
It’s not hard to check armories and see that the vast majority of people who enjoy MSV on these boards have experience in pvp, and that the vast majority of those that hate or do not get the spec have never even unlocked Challenger.
It’s a pretty well known phenomenon to regulars of these forums.
You’re not getting this thing that you can’t claim things, especially things using adjectives like “adore” and “beloved”, without evidence.
Oh, I can’t? How do you plan on stopping me? Do you think this is a scholastic debate?
This is an experienced MSV main with double your played time telling you that you don’t know anything about the spec based off of the data that you gave me about your history. This is not a scholastic debate. I do not care about some pompous faux-academic goalposts of [citations]
MSV players like our spec. People that don’t play MSV don’t like the spec. MSV players prefer that our spec be left alone rather than modified to fit the arbitrary desires of a playerbase that may well not like the “rework” either.
This isn’t about you wanting a “historic” version of survival back, it’s about wanting to feel like you’re being heard by Blizzard.
Sorry, but you’re not. They’re not even asking you. Maybe if you gave the spec a shot and built up some experience with it, your opinion about it might gain some more relevance.
I’m a casual duelist-level player off and on since Wrath whose primary enjoyment in modern WoW comes from the goofy style of WPVP that my server is famous for.
I’m “mediocre” insofar as I don’t actually care about pushing titles in the current state of end-game and have better uses of my time. If you actually knew anything about pvp, that’d be pretty obvious, because anybody that got s1 duelist was certainly capable of getting s4 gladiator by stacking corruptions.
I didn’t because corruptions aren’t fun and engaging gameplay.
You are a ZERO xp player calling a duelist mediocre, check yourself lmao
[citation needed]
I never once argued otherwise. In fact, I specifically said as much. What I argued is that MSV, despite being the most popular hunter spec for PvP, is still incredibly low on PVP representation as a whole.
Besides, I was asking for evidence that “hunters who PvP adore MSV”, not that the majority of hunters that PvP are speced MSV. That’s already well-established.
And you need to back that up with evidence if you’re trying to try to claim it and use it to support your argument that the low representation of hunters is not relevant to this discussion.
Individual armories are not statistical evidence, and frankly, you’ve not even provided armories. You’re still trying to pretend it’s my responsibility to disprove your baseless claim.
Let me amend. You’re not allowed to do that and be taken seriously. You can continue doing it all you want, I guess, but it just means you’re acknowledging you don’t have the evidence to support it, and thus your claims are meaningless noise.
Yes. And since the latter out-number the former by an order of magnitude (based on spec representation numbers, for example raiding statistics, mythic+ statistics), that would suggest MSV shouldn’t really exist, if we’re using that as justification for a spec.
I’m saying that a person that got Duelist once, and then simply hit Rival thereafter (and given the proliferation of carries, who knows if that Duelist was even legit, though I usually give the benefit of the doubt) isn’t a person that should be trying to pull the cred card. It’s the same reason that I don’t try to pull the “I raid mythic, I know what I’m talking about” card, because while I do, I’m certainly not at the seriousness and progression to really justify using that card.
And yet they didn’t.
You realize my title, Prospector, from the Seething Shore achievement is literally rarer than the BFA S4 proto-drake, right?
Season 4 was hyper inflated and titles could be cheesed easily by stacking gushing wound or vers.
I wasn’t even active most of season 4, if my Mechagon trinket didn’t make that obvious to you. I’ve spent most of 2020 taking photos and making photobooks irl because it’s a historic moment worthy of documenting.
and given the proliferation of carries, who knows if that Duelist was even legit,
Buddy, check the date on my duelist.
Firstly, it’s from RBGs not arena, because I was grinding a ton of games first week due to the gear droprate before they nerfed it
Secondly, it’s from the first or second week of the season, nobody is doing carries that early in the season because they’re still grinding their own CR.
I was actually the first hunter to 2100 in RBGs for North America, fwiw. That’s not a very prestigious claim, but it’s a factual one.
Keep demonstrating that you’re just out here spewing words as a know-nothing DH main. You’ve already outed yourself as having no actual experience with MSV, only gut feelings about it.
CITATION NEEDED CITATION NEEDED CITATION NEEDED
Nobody cares, man.
Minorities are allowed to exist, you know. Having niche specs is healthy for the game. Not every spec needs to be FOTM at all times.
MSV is literally not meant to appeal to every hunter.
You want proof it’s designed with pvp in mind? Look at harpoon and our pvp talents. Harpoon and net are incredibly potent tools that a ranged hunter should never have access to, because it would grant them too much control. Being a mid-range jousting melee spec is the compromise to access those obscenely strong utilities.
Right, so you’ve decided to go the “evidence doesn’t matter” route. Ok. Well, come back when you have some evidence, because until then all your bluster and claims are literally meaningless. You can assert until you’re blue in the face that every hunter that PvPs adores MSV, that it is their most beloved spec ever, and it doesn’t do a thing to demonstrate it. At this point, it’s just wishful thinking on your part.
You don’t even play your hunter, nobody cares whether you’re convinced of the ever-shifting goalpost of DuH EvIdEnCe.
You are not entitled to my time, I am not going to spend my time digging up obscure historic representation stats. You are welcome to look them up on your own. They’re out there. If you do not care to do your own research, I care far less to do it for you.
My “anecdotal” evidence is far more valuable than the opinions of a guy who abandoned this class before this spec was even made. Crying for citations won’t make that less true.
You were the one making the assertion. Unless you’re going to back it up, your assertion can and must be assumed to be unsubstantiated by evidence and thus excluded from the conversation. So at this point, we’re back to MSV having little reason to exist.
I never “abandoned” it, as evidenced by the fact that I’ve continued to raid on my hunter, though quite a bit less seriously. I also stopped raiding on my hunter specifically because of how significant the changes were to it in 7.0. This isn’t a “before”, this is a “because of”.