“only a sith thinks in absolutes”
it gives me somehow this vibes 
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Ya that is complicated as we don’t know who the survivors were and how they survives. But is it safe to assume Dranies killed orc women and children?
In human history just about every kingdom at one point raid cities and whipped them off the map. I just don’t understand these acts are only mentioned when horde does them. Didn’t the alliance for example do something similar with trolls? Take if away mass territories results in civilian casualties.
It kind of reinforces what I’ve thought for a while, since the Void has been expanded over the years. The Void is represented by infinite branching paths, and investment into it can lead to Insanity. The Light in contrast is more characterized by a single-linear path. Even if those that think to that extreme don’t agree on which path that truth is. But, overfixation on it (like with Xe’ra and the Scarlets) can lead to Fanaticism. Which is why if they do show up again (and Blizz commits to them) the Lightbound are likely to eventually pose a danger to even Azerothian Light Worshipper practices.
… Once they’ve dealt with those that don’t worship the Light at all that is.
The problem is that the orcs themselves set the framework by doing that themselves.
Just like the trolls, they made no distinction before and kill children and women in the same way. What they got then was…self-inflicted to say the least, that their population was given zero value, to the point that even the trolls’ puppies were slaughtered like cattle…they had sown hatred, and that was the harvest.
It is safe to assume that yes. But its not as if the Draenei went into that situation looking to do so. It is also sadly an issue that IF you came to believe the Draenei were behind the plague running rampant through your people, then (even before that tragedy) … you have come to believe that the Draenei are already killing your woman and kids. Because the disease would not discriminate.
This is the reason that I insist that both the Draenei and Orcish people were both victims of Draenor. As the Bladewind incident was just one of many manipulations and orchestrations created to convince the Orcs that the Draenei were out to eradicate them. It was all a settup. A ploy.
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I though humans were the aggressors as they moving into troll lands and not the other way around?
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This kind of story is great for the game, where both sides are right from their own perspective.
And thank you, I just wanted to point out the inconsistency brought up in the story that don’t get addressed from horde perspective. Like Andiun mentioning orcs killing women and children without demon blood.
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There are multiple troll wars, which ones are you talking about?
If you’re talking before the Pre Arathi situation, Humans had been hunted and eaten by trolls on and off for several millennia, as a prehistory, they were still organised into tribes and just lived there, even longer than trolls were there.
The elf-troll situation is also not quite so simple: when the elf empire expanded, the trolls attacked in the great empire of the night elves, until then the night elves had not behaved militarily towards anyone, they did not need to, their dominance was undisputed and the other races preferred to retreat rather than seek conflict with the night elves. The exception was the trolls, who then got hardly beaten and lost badly.
When the ancestors of the high elves appeared as refugees, the trolls attacked immediately, thinking that another invasion was about to start, and so they raised the hereditary enmity to a whole new level. Its not so onesided. (For example, Dath’Remar don´t wanted a conflict, this conflict was forced upon them through the attacks of the trolls.)
There was also the Highborne refugees settling on what ended up being Forest Troll sacred land. Sigh … Troll history is a complicated one, not helped in the slightest by the extremely one-sided iteration of those events reinforcing the idea that the colonizers and invaders are generally the victims. God, Trolls of all the PC races have truly had one of the roughest treatments in this game franchise. Up until very recently. Its part of why I do REALLY thank Zappyboi, because without that reaction fans had to him … I have no doubt that Bwon (the patron Loa of the Darkspear) would have been hit with the villain bat.
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Guess the first troll and human war. Didn’t it happen because humans were expanding into troll lands?
the attacke on the refugees happened in lordaeron, long before Silvermoon was build.
nop, it happened because the trolls attack the high elves and high elves and human build an alliance to end this thread of the trolls, for ever, and kick their teeth so hard, they could never recover from this hit.
most of their land was taken away after this war, yes, but before this, the trolls killed every man, child and woman from the elves they could find, so again, it was in part…deserved to be beaten up so badly.
That’s also true. Sigh … as I said, complicated. Though to be fair to the Trolls themselves on that “intergenerational grudge” … technically that grudge was only intergenerational on one side. There were certainly liable to be Highborne who were of the generation who carved up their Empires.
Lordaeron was part of the Armani empire at that time.
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The Humans lived there, longer as any mortal race exist, so the amani counted it as their Territory, in fact, the humans lifed there thousand of years before the first troll was ever born. The traveled there as vyrkuls and degenerated there, later the nordend vyrkul brought their degenerated child to this ex-vyrkul-colony.
Mini-rant unrelated to any specific post.
Realistically, the issue is the fluctuating morality of the universe and how players will not perceive crimes/atrocities for what they are until they’re explicitly told by the game they should feel bad.
The Horde are irredeemable, cruel and savage. And that’s okay, when the narrative doesn’t demean you for it.
The issue is, the writers will occasionally conflate that the Horde’s actions are a result of [insert scapegoat here] and thus they hold no liability for their actions, as they were influenced by [scapegoat] and thus are actually good people.
Even the truest “good” Horde that people idolize in the early iterations of World of Warcraft are prone to savagely eradicating an enemy, killing their children and ensuring their enemies fear them.
The narrative just doesn’t want to address it, thus Quillboar/Harpies/etc are treated as generic monsters rather than a civilization on it’s own and the Horde player feels like the triumphant hero rather than the actual horrifying monster they’re actually playing.
When an aggressive character takes center stage and portrays the Horde as they’ve been represented in all forms of media, the player-base doesn’t like it because they’re shining a spotlight onto the actual behavior witnessed within questing experience.
Garrosh by himself is an Orc’s Orc, he behaves like most Orcs do that existed prior in the questing experience up till Cata but people only had issue with him because he was a face and voice to the behavior that players often partake in, he wasn’t the “true Horde” because the “true Horde” was Thrall saying they were beyond that while the questing experience often portrayed other Orcs laughing at Thrall’s idealism and mocking his fragile alliance with humans.
Suddenly the playerbase is in uproar, demanding the blood of Garrosh and screaming how evil he is and needs to be eliminated so the Horde can return to it’s “roots” and how they’ve “ruined Orcs” despite the portrayal remaining completely consistent with what came before.
And with Blizzard obliging, they re-write things to shove the Horde character into a narrative about how those things are bad and you should feel bad.
Does this lead to character growth? Nothing aside from top-level stuff, because top-level stuff is all people care about.
Look at BfA.
Everyone goes “yay the Horde is fixed!” because Gallywix and Sylvanas got removed despite the Horde populace being fully complicit and going to kill the Horde rebels until Sylvanas said mean things about them.
Now the top level of the Horde is nothing but yes-men to the ideal that many espouse while the actual populace remains questionably cruel/savage and irredeemable.
Props to BfA for one thing, it at least ended with the Alliance narrative acknowledging the Horde isn’t “redeemed” and good with them sharpening their knives for the next time.
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What! No trolls as a race are a lot older then humans and humans came from Northren. Trolls were there long before humans existed.
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Vyrkuls and Humans are much older, then any other mortal race we know. The winterscorn wars happened…30.000 years ago, trolls as species are only 17.000 years old.
So nop, vyrkuls and all their ancestors are much older then any “normal not robotictitanrace”.
all titanforged races are older then any “natural grown race”.
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Vyrkuls yes not humans. Even then to say vyrkuls are older then other races is quite a stretch.
The Winterscornwar came into being for two reasons: Paranoia of a corrupt Titanforged and his fear of the discovery of his corruption and…the curse of the flesh that worked terribly among the Vyrkul and turned Vyrkul into fleshyl vyrkuls and after that in humans.
Vyrkuls are muuuuuuuch older, they are over 100.000 years old as a species (Even older as dragons). (ca 132.000 years to be exactly, the war of the titankeeper against the old gods happened there)
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