And there’s a part in the book where Tyrande instructs Chromie to show a vision of the Orcs invading one of the Draenei cities for the first time, I think it was called Tuurem and they started slaughtering innocent Draenei including children. This was before Orcs drank the demon blood btw.
Someone asks Anduin who had watched the vision why Tyrande wanted to show this vision and Anduin said it’s so the Orcs can’t use the ‘We only murdered because of demon blood’ excuse. He literally called it an excuse.
Ok, so what is the excuse for Orcs murdering innocents then? According to Orcs they are only evil when they have been tricked into drinking demon blood but that is obviously a lie.
The Orcs before drinking the demons blood was highly shamanistic. Agents of legions manage to manipulate their circles of shamans to show them visions of the Dreanei basically destroying them.
With someone like Guldan overseeing the extermination of the Draenei he would have simply considered it pragmatic to slaughter them wholesale so they don’t become a problem for later.
Plus the Legion wanted them dead so there is that influence to consider too.
And we’re supposed to consider Orcs a redeemable race after they agreed with Gul’dan? I mean Dealin Proudmoore is considered a bad guy and he followed that exact same logic, except in his case he was right.
And how do you explain the fact that the Orcs were pretty much thrilled they got to slaughter innocents even BEFORE drinking demon blood.
The Legion is their own problem, has nothing to do with what the Orcs did.
Alrighty, I know better than to engage with you on an average basis. You don’t tend to have discussions in any sort of good faith, but I know that not everyone reads the books, so there’s some value in clarification.
However, holy crap, you’re being disingenuous with how you’re presenting this information. So, as someone who has also read War Crimes, the sacking of Tuurem was not a happy time for the Frostwolves. Tuurem was not accessible to Gul’dan, and he wanted that city gone.
So, he pressed Durotan, who knew how to get past the barrier at Tuurem, with, “You’ll do this, or I’ll slaughter everyone you know and love. Kthx.”
In fact, isn’t there a passage about Durotan literally having a mental breakdown over a child’s death during the sacking of Tuurem? Yeah. There is.
For the last time, there is no excuse and the story, contrary to a widely held opinion, doesn’t try to excuse it. The draenei thing is Bad and is clearly presented as Bad. A big, costly mistake, of you will, that many orcs who were still alive to remember it, deeply regret.
That same passage you’re talking about in your OP later introduces Saurfang, who’s famously guilt-ridden because of it and he says as much. It later brings in Velen, who actually says he holds no ill will towards orcs “because he knows first hand how manipulative the Legion can be”.
God, dude, at this point I wonder if you’re actually a troll. Everytime you post, it’s always about “orcs bad” or “Horde bad”. It seems to be the only thing you’re interested in. Cringe, really.
Despite Durotan being all conflicted and sad about betraying Velen’s trust, he does admit in Rise of the Horde that the initial battle was kinda fun. Killing kids brought him out of the fun, tho.
Legion manipulated lots of Orcs, including Ner’zhul about Draenei being a threat to them.
Maybe this could’ve been avoided if Draenei did warn orcs about Burning Legion and a guy that gained title “the Deceiver”.
And in a way it is ironic, because Draenei are of Eredar Race and the Man’ari eredar were a galactic threat.
Edit: Above comment was intentionally farfetched. It shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Here is a basic timeline of everything that happened to the OG horde
Draenei show up and become isolationist freaks, having extremely little outside contact o the rest of the world, basically only trading with the Shadowmoon and occiosnally helping one or two orcs out.
Nerzhul, the leader of the Shadowmoon, receives a message from who he thinks is his dead wife, She warns him about how the Draenei are planning an attack, meanwhile other shamans across the globe receive the exact same message.
The orc clans gather together to discuss what to do, and decide they have to declare war on the draenei, with some of the less morally salvagable clans like the Stormreavers and the Warsong leading the way.
Elements stop working for the Shamans, Gul’dan introduces them to Warlockism, the first steps to fel corruption
Gul’dan extorts vital info from Duratar, uses it to kill all the Draenei he can
Orcs need a pick me up, Gul’dan gives them Fel-Juice, Orcs go crazy
Gul’dan uses captured Draenei to fuel the dark portal, Warcraft 1 time baby!
I am just in awe of Blizzard constantly playing the UNO reverse card when it comes to Horde honor and Horde villainy’s endless cycle.
That’s what I find is the most annoying thing about all this. Sometimes authors get hired and they try to fill in the gaps but pointing out Blizzard inconsistencies and try to address them but Blizzard ignores all that and plows ahead with the next UNO reverse card.
I don’t care much for Shadowlands but when we go back to Azeroth to supposedly pick up the ceasefire where we left it off is going to be interesting.
There isn’t one and we already have in game canon to prove that Orcs don’t need demon influence in order to be genocidal monsters. Theramoore (inb4 muh PoD), Death Squads in Ashenvale pre-Cata revamp, Ashenvale in Cata, The entirety of WoD, BfA pre-launch.
Sigh … the Orcs were tricked into attacking the Draenei by KJ; through a combination of Red Pox (which was blamed on the Draenei) and KJ twisting the Orc’s culture and faith to convince them the Draenei were out to destroy them. So with decades of mistrust and avoiding one another, on a relatively cruel world that fosters “survive or die” cultures, this was a recipe for disaster. All it really took was a spark, and the right push. Even before the visions of KJ to Ner’zhul (who was an absurdly respected spirtual leader).
That spark was the Bladewind Clan. Who, had historically contentious relations with the Draenei. When Gul’dan’s outbreak of Red Pox resulted in a 70 percent death rate among that clan; and the local elements were thrown out of balance (causing famine and drought); Gul’dan approached them and convinced them that the Draenei were responsible for their hardships. And that the only method to appease the elements was to kill the Draenei (which they believed because they were desperate and he was of the Shadowmoon).
This resulted in what Gul’dan and KJ wanted. The Bladewind increasingly attacked the Draenei, and capturing prisoners. One of them being Maraad’s sister. Eventually insighting retaliation from the Draenei, who’s offensive (finding those prisoners dead) resulted in a massacre of the Bladewind. With Gul’dan killing off what few survivors did escape, so that only his version of events would survive to be told. Playing into the idea that KJ (using the guise of Ner’zhul’s dead wife) reinforced. That the Draenei were out to eradicate the Orcish people (and that the Bladewind were just the first victims). Combine this with the Pox (blamed on the Draenei), and the Spirits apparently telling one of their most respected leaders “You have to kill them before they kill you” … and you get the recipe for the Draenei purge. Even before the Fel blood.
Okay, so, Orc lore has been moderately butchered in the last several years since the writers got on their ‘dude so metal!!’ kick back in Cataclysm, and it’s only become worse. WoD and Chronicle basically just took a shotgun to something that was already crippled.
In the original lore, the Draenei and Orcs were aloof of each other but had limited trading. They generally kept to themselves, but this meant the Orcs weren’t too familiar with the Draenei and were suspicious of them at times. It should also be noted that in this original lore, Orcs were a ‘peaceful and shamanistic’ race, they had a warrior culture but were fairly laid back. Their shaman were their spiritual leaders, and trusted implicitly.
Ner’zhul in the old lore was the shaman, so respected that even the shaman and leaders of other clans listened to him. So when Kil’jaeden started messing with the spirits and appeared to Ner’zhul as his dead wife, it was an easy in. This was coupled with the fact that the Draenei had revealed that the spirits of Orc ancestors were being drawn to the ‘holy mountain’ due to the naaru they’d brought. Thus drawing a clear line between Orc spirits being messed with and the Draenei. This then disrupted the Orc’s connection with the elements as they were led down a slow path of corruption, it was much more nuanced, though still horrific. It was the Orcs sacrificing a piece of themselves bit by bit, each time inching further away from what their true selves were. So gradual that by the time Ner’zhul realized the truth, it was too late.
The new lore is just… bad, and I have no idea why they thought it would be better. The only thing I like about it is that in the new lore the Draenei put up a much bigger fight at Shattrath and looked less like pushovers, but it came at the cost of Orc themes.
This is something I’ve meant to ask before, but what was the interaction like between the races before draenei became a playable race in TBC, back when they were just known as the shrively broken dudes? Did they actually have a part as targeted victims or was that added later?
The original Draenei, before the retcon, were what came to be known as Broken, yes. The story was still fairly similar in that the Orcs still went to war with them and nearly wiped them out. Everything was basically the exact same in terms of their interactions, limited trading and such, but the old Draenei weren’t Light worshippers or more advanced technology-wise.
Blizz Dev 1: I don’t understand, I keep making the Horde more and more METAL, but Nathan Expolsion and the rest of Dethklok still won’t play and endorse the game!
Blizz Dev 2: What? Dude, Metalpocalypse is just a cartoon, those ‘fans’ you’re trying to appeal to don’t even exis-"
As if the orcs could hid forever, or did you forget according to Legion, most of the know universe was already destroyed. The Legion does not care if you were on an insignificant world. It was a crusade to end all life. Without the draenei, the orcs would probably have just been wiped out by the Legion sooner or later.
They were going to die anyway, is probably the saddest excuse you Draenai posters have to excuse the blood on the hands of your race. By that logic, can’t fault the orcs for killing Draenai because the Legion was going to do it anyway. In fact, it was the fault of the Legion as it was the influence of Kil’jaeden that caused the orcs corruption. But keep thinking your race is innocent. Anything to keep that sterling veneer on that moral pedestal.
