i end up just writting worse every time they correct only for them to attack me call me dumb and stuff.
Yeah…pretty much exactly what they did, I think they fired her creator too so they couldn’t stop them.
yeah I’ve also endured this… some people just don’t know manners it seems.
thing is for most of the alliance they already had been allies for ages. but were just not apart of the alliance faction. where as the horde is cultures that some are not compatable at all. but than you get unique situations like the 2 elven highborne groups blood elves and nightborn. both of which are far differnt from the orc cultures who even among them are varried. a council really isnt working out and has a high chance of failing goodness the zandalari almost left because of the attempts of peace between alliance and horde. im surprised the alliance isnt in a state of civil war due to the past events the horde already has gone through 2 civil wars shows how compatable the cultures in it is.
OK. I’m going to do everyone a favor and fall on this grenade of anti-formatting.
The Alliance wasn’t in pursuit of the Blood Elves to any strategic degree; there weren’t enough of them to be concerned about and they weren’t going to last long on the meager reserves they had left. So the Alliance was doing the ‘wait until they come back to the table’ gambit. The Alliance did not hate the Elves (Garithos sure did though, and he didn’t do them or the Alliance any favors), but they weren’t inclined to assist them either until they came back to the table.
The Forsaken jumped at the opportunity to reach out to the Blood Elves, but not necessary out of any kind of altruism, it was entirely opportunistic. It’s wild that the Blood Elves would ever consider joining up with even the ‘repentant’ remnants of the force that nearly extincted them, but the expansion needed to be done, and so it was.
As far as the Alliance, they were rightfully concerned about the presence of undead within a fallen Alliance kingdom. Since the undead under the Scourge were still intelligent enough to lie, and undeath in general is a pox and plague on the planet, it was deemed safest to simply annihilate all remaining undead in the vicinity.
The Tauren are the eternal optimists of WoW; they try to see the very best outcome and potential of everyone they meet, and only once sufficiently wronged do they come around to violence. The Tauren also have no built-in hatred of Humans or the Alliance in general, at least not through the lens of the Horde; they would certainly prefer Dwarves and Gnomes not go quite so far with their mining and excavation efforts, but outside of that they would likely get along quite well.
I’m not sure why Cairne is upheld as some godsend for the Tauren and Baine is derided when they are very close to one another as far as their mindsets; it’s just that Baine had more information than Cairne had at the time, he saw what being honorable against a tyrant gets you. So him working to undermine Sylvanas from the shadows was both appropriate and ironic 'cause Sylvanas was supposed to be the Horde’s spymaster.
Finally, the blood pact they made with the Orcs can be made invalid if the Tauren are forced against their beliefs and Garrosh 100% violated the Tauren’s way of life in pursuit of his warmongering.
The Darkspear also saw the problem with ‘all war, all the time’, because it was that exact situation that threatened them with extinction and exile in the first place. So of course Vol’jin would be vehemently opposed to senseless warmongering. Responding to provocation, yes, but being the aggressor? That’s not the way, mon.
Doomhammer’s sole claim to fame was embarassing loss after embarassing loss. He was so bad as Warchief that the Horde lost in two dimensions instead of just one, and Orcs would be relegated to refugee status with how soundly the Alliance trounced that Horde.
You mean a figure that had a complicated past and saw trouble in the future was less-than-thrilled with the revelation that the Horde of old was brutal and cruel even before the corruption? Of course Thrall saw that particular Horde as being incompatible with continued existence on Azeroth. After all, the Alliance already annihilated them once, provoking them again would surely lead to ruin.
Who remained the most successful Warchief to ever hold the position, and guess under whose leadership the Horde didn’t get blasted into smithereens and had Alliance soldiers marching within its capital by the end of the war?
Again, Garrosh was out of line and out of control, and had outright contempt for any member of the Horde than wasn’t an Orc.
Apparently Cairne likes how Baine’s doing things, and Baine is also the glue holding the Horde together. He’s a natural diplomat, is cautious in his movements, is loathe to go to violence, and even has a bit of cleverness to him with his ability to improvise and act with subterfuge. The exact opposite of Garrosh who was a hotheaded moron during the best of days and a racist monster on the average. Hell, under his ‘leadership’, the Horde nearly disintegrated.
This… Is pure mania. I have no idea what you’re saying here. Baine never ‘sided’ with the Alliance, he opened channels of diplomacy and negotiation with them. The reformations of the Horde from the Third War came from Thrall (and Grom’s) desire for honor and peace, alongside Cairne and the Tauren, and Vol’jin and the Darkspear. Everyone wanted to survive and have their own space, so they needed to band together and show the world not only that they had the will to survive, but the means to protect themselves. They also had to show the warmongering of the past was exactly that, in the past. This meant adopting a new lifestyle and culture, and distancing themselves from the conquerers of old (especially since those conquerers were largely ineffective once the surprise arrival on Azeroth wore off).
Retaliation is fine as long as it is proportionate; if an army attacks your army, you respond in kind. Annihilation of civilians, noncombatants, that’s something that Thrall’s Horde, the Horde Garrosh was given control over, was never to do. So yes, those voice would absolutely speak up and, if Garrosh insisted on his pig-headed approach, forcibly stop him. Thus his deposing and disposal.
Baine could have chosen his words a bit better, but his logic wasn’t insane; the enemy had just struck a very telling blow across several fronts, only one of which was Rastakhan’s death. Retaliation would mean the deaths of innumerable Horde and likely the wholesale destruction of Dazar’alor if they didn’t completely surrender. Baine also didn’t know that Sylvanas had a trick up her sleeve at the time of this suggestion because no one in the Horde knew because Sylvanas wanted to kill as much Horde and Alliance as possible.
Aahahaha… Yeah, sure, right. 100% lockstep. Whose step would we follow? Whose culture would reign supreme? Everyone’s Orcs now? No more Tauren spirituality? No more Goblin undercutting? No more Blood Elf sophistication? No more Troll savviness? Nevermind that it’s real, real hard to win allies when you essentially say ‘lick the boot or join the bones’, and half the member cultures of the Horde would outright abandon it at that point.
Please make friends with your Enter button in the future, thanks.
if you played the blood elf starting zones the reason they joined the horde was the attacks by the night elves whos camps to this day are there and their reestablisment of arcane sanctims which are required for stablizing magic and allowing it to flow because if it doesnt animals go crazy and blood elves will wither seen as such with the wretched also still in game. it was the forsaken who activly helped them where the alliance activly hindered and attacked them. clearly you have not played that side or even read the lore.
the forsaken under sylvanas helped because those are her people that is her kingdom and they were trying to help those who were also victims of the scourge and also were known allies when they were not undead.
that is their problem the alliance first instinct is judgement the horde in the same situation despite being the morally grey or evil side did not judge they showed compassion and mercy and understanding.
while that is true it isnt for all the tauren tribes, such as the grimtotem.
and that is why they are better at negotiating.
the differnce between cairne and baine, is that cairne knows when and where is the best time for peace. baine does not and has showed this and his lack of understanding timing has cost the horde greatly leading to the horde being less unified than ever. and the trust baine would have had is forever gone.
we know that tauren have willingly gave into a blood pact via the bloodtotem clan. not all tauren clans are peaceful had the tauren been given the same situation which that had with the blood totem they would have done the same which the bloodtotem did. but as for garrosh actions became more desperate as people like voljin and baine and others have since day 1 of him being warchief shown nothing but hostility he was littterally set up from day one to fail.
his contempt didnt only came over time as warchief not at the start when magatha grimtotem poisioned garrosh weapon he by using a poison lost the duel but did kill cairne,moment he found out it was poisoned he was furious it embarrased him cairne actually would have won that duel , every action garrosh made he was made to look bad .
baine is not the clue he betrayed the horde he pushed for peace in the worst timeing he not only helped the enemy but killed those he did not have the authority to. he should have died by the quill boars and not be saved by raxxar in warcraft 3.
baine did side with them thrall while being a good leader was by far the worst person at choosing a successor he should have chosen Cairne even garrosh didnt want the role he was not ready nor were anyone willing to side with him. and because of that garrosh was set up for failure. i blame thrall
please the alliance are just as guilty as the horde. besides the alliance if given the chance would genocide the horde this has been seen endlessly even in the novels they show the view the alliance has on the horde.
this goes back to what i said cairne knew timing and would know to not be impulsive and his actions actually caused divisions in the horde causing many even civilians to start to distrust eachother and even the soldiers.
there is an old saying loose lips sinks ships. and this fits with what baine did. in war you obey your commanding officer you do not question because they could have something that would lead to a win.
no i refuse.
False advertising
I’ll admit I haven’t played a Blood Elf (because why the hell would I), but the Night Elves could have been misinterpreting the situation, I cannot speak to their motivations (because I also don’t play Night Elves, god elves, ew). Since at the time Arcane Magic in natural settings by elves was seen as a massive no-no in NE society, so Tyrande probably did what Tyrande tends to do, overreacted and sent soldiers when scouts would have done. Wouldn’t be the first time NE have bungled a mess, honestly.
Firstly, and let me make this as abundantly clear as possible:
Lordaeron is not Sylvanas’s kingdom.
Now, with that stated, we knew the Forsaken were reaching out and trying to help the victims of the Scourge, but the Blood Elves realistically should have hit the panic button the instant they saw verifiable undead marching toward Silvermoon. Unless they received a missive from a trusted source, it’s as absurd as a Death Knight being allowed to walk the streets of Stormwind and not get smitten until they were ash.
The Horde didn’t lose kingdoms to the Scourge, and WC1 and 2 they actively spread undeath. The Tauren are the only reason, and I mean the only reason that the Forsaken yet exist, and the viper’s bit them twice now. So yeah, the Alliance had every reason to be extremely wary of the still-active undead threat right on their border. Especially since they were effectively usurping the throne of Lordaeron.
This lack of understanding wasn’t because Baine wanted the Horde to die, that’s insane. This lack of understanding is because Sylvanas didn’t tell him what her plan was, that she had One Insane Trick™ to cripple the KT navy. She also couldn’t tell him this plan because this plan was literally apocalyptic in its scale and would be opposed by every living thing on the planet once it became known. Which, well, it did.
In Baine’s eyes, the Horde command structure was surrounded in one place because Sylvanas basically ordered every senior Horde leader to Dazar’alor, and the Alliance not only penetrated the city’s defenses and caused upheaval with Rastakhan’s death, but also completely bricked the ZT navy in an upset unheard of in WoW’s military history. They were surrounded, had next to no resources, and further resistance would mean unnecessary death. Baine knew that Anduin was open to reason as well, so he figured he could appeal to him and get most, if not all of the Horde passage to leave the city, and then negotiate from there.
Outside of the Grimtotem, the Tauren we encounter are usually of the Bloodhoof mindset: slow to anger, analytical, willing to forgive, and open to respectful outsiders. Given this, it would stand to reason that most Tauren would not be willing to be reduced to shocktroopers in some megalomaniac’s army.
Cairne didn’t just suddenly decide he needed to take control of the Horde, Garrosh’s continued aggression and warmongering pushed him to that point. Furthermore, if Garrosh felt he lost without the poison, he should have stepped down then and there. He didn’t. He took his poisoned win and ran with it. Garrosh could have redeemed himself for most (but not all) of his faults and shown himself as the honorable warrior Thrall saw by owning his failure, but no. Garrosh went full ‘everyone else is wrong but me’ and his megalomania was his downfall when he went up against a war machine that stomped the Horde twice before (the Alliance) and rebels led by a leader with far more charisma, experience, leadership, and support (Vol’jin and the Darkspear Rebellion).
Again, Baine did not have all of the information necessary to realize a superweapon was about to be deployed, but that was because Sylvanas was pointing it at the Alliance and Horde ships. Sylvanas was also about to perform a horrific act that would not only completely abandon the Forsaken philosophy of free will, but also obliterate any traces of honor the Horde had left. Baine absolutely made the right call in getting involved; and he also only killed those that insisted on standing in his way, those that yielded were allowed to leave unharmed.
Opening channels of communication is not ‘siding with the enemy’. It was peacetime and Baine was trying to figure out what to do next after the most recent worldwide calamity. Since the Horde alone cannot solve Azeroth’s problems, he reached out to the Alliance, and Anduin did the same. The faction divide is being recognized as a detriment to the world, so sane leaders did what sane leaders do.
As far as Thrall, yes, he did make a mistake by getting too starry-eyed for Garrosh, but it wasn’t like Garrosh didn’t have steady hands to help guide him. He had every chance to get on board with the Horde’s philosophy but he threw tantrums every time someone got in his way. To the point where Cairne, an individual you have to honestly work to enrage, decided to challenge him to a duel to the death over it. Thrall made the mistake, but Garrosh had plenty of chances to seek advice and change his course, and owns his failures.
Jaina is the reason Orgimmar yet stands. Varian also let the Horde off with a warning multiple times. Anduin was in active communication with Horde officials. Hell, General John Hawthorne is one of the most hated NPCs in WoW despite making the absolutely best call he could and attempting to preserve as much life as possible. He, like Baine, simply didn’t have all of the information he needed when he needed it, and unfortunate complications arose.
Baine saw what Sylvanas was doing as reprehensible and worth investigating. Since she was being cagey with her allies and not telling anyone anything, he had to go digging himself. Once he found out the plan (which, again, ran entirely counter to the Horde’s philosophy), he had to act.
Furthermore, if Baine doesn’t stop Sylvanas’s plan, Jaina can’t save Anduin, they don’t save Thrall, they don’t save Baine, and the Jailer wins. So, uh, pretty good thing Baine snooped around on his hunch.
the horde has been through so much countless leaders died so much internal conflict civil wars rebellions many losing families that. and now the push for peace and try and let things go is insanity, then of Corse you have to think about the alliance and all they went through and their leaders trying to push peace, there is a ton of night elves who outright refuse to stop hostilities, the horde council cannot last if war between the alliance and horde sparks again there is to much bad blood between the factions and not having a singular leader a warchief the horde would fall apart due to peace lovers like baine. with all thats happened peace between the factions cannot happen and this has always been the case.
I can’t imagine Alliance leadership is terribly thrilled with NE (and lesser extent, the Worgen) being wildcards, so there are certainly efforts to bring them to heel or at least stop organized attacks. You’ll always have the outlier or two refusing to let bad blood wash out but that’s the case for literally every society on Azeroth. The larger orgs can continue to try and cooperate and build together.
Ideally, the Alliance and Horde don’t resume hostilities; the universe barely survived the results of their last little spat. The faction leaders are keenly aware of this and are probably going to do whatever it takes to ensure the spark of war doesn’t return, at least between the factions. Which is a good thing; the Fifth War probably means the end of Azeroth.
It’s a quarter 'til Midnight.
Sure theres a council but whenever the story requires a horde leader who do we get? Lor’themar and Thalyssra. Elves lead the horde. The council might as well not exist
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Im not running a business so its not an advertisement
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There’s so many “leaders” in so many phases in the Horde throne room they probably just made the Horde Council story to justify how ridiculous that is.
it was one in the morning for me. if you look at the people who joined the incarnates its many of the victims of the fighting of alliance and horde whos faction agreed to stop fighting before they even joined of corse they would lose faith in their factions over the years and join a bigger cause specially with many finding out the titans lies and secrets becomming public the shadowlands being ripped open and people finding out their afterlives were but lies. i wonder if there is other groups than the incarnates full of people who are angry for what happned. goodness their is still of corse the sylvanas loyalist soldiers who we saw were locked in chains in org at the end of BFA. if some of them escaped they may pose a threat and wouldnt see the horde council as legitiment not to mention the scarlet crusade apparently already has infiltrated the alliance to eventually try and force a take over of lordaeron and many in the forsaken who do not trust calia menethil. frankly i expect conflict to arive and people who oppose the the horde council and the horde stopping the war. no doubt same with the alliance ending the war as well. this of corse means the conflicts between the alliance and horde inevidible.
Agreed. The Horde council idea is lame. We need a Warchief, even if there’s no war with the Alliance.
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I vote for a Blood Elf Warchief, who was there with Garrosh when nuking an Alliance town? Definitely not the other losers.
I feel like the reason they shouldn’t have censored it is because it didn’t show Garrosh in the best light. It was actual setup for “here’s a gross imperialist chauvinist who actually sucks and cares little for horde troops.”
He high key wanted the forsaken to lose and surprised him when they didn’t lol.
Wow 3 months >.>
But yeah if I’m remembering correctly Garrosh literally sent them too Gilneas to die which also tbh is the only real reason I think would make sense for sending Horde troops there anyway 
Like Gilneas wasn’t part of the Alliance and neither side we’re too interested in coming together so not a threat and as for location well offers no real advantage that the Horde was desperately lacking.
If they bring back a single leader for the horde it is a safe bet they won’t call it warchief anymore.
guy our own leader don’t care abt us anymore he got married to the night borne lady that man said bye and walked lol. he probably got smart and realized every chief gets rektd lol. not to say i wouldn’t be happy with this but you know that’s a death sentence whoever receives that title…
acutally no yeah make baine warchief pls
I actually hate how the writers. Make one want to punch him. And if he dies one would be like oh well … Moving on…
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