So DKS are officially the only class without a raid buff now

Classes Death Knight
21

Cool.

Remind me again how players will be 100% accepting of DPS DKs doing an extra 5% more DPS minimum over every other DPS because they don’t bring a raid buff and have no real useful utility in raid (your Fyrakk “grip” fight was done by a Blood DK and most guilds didn’s use any DKs).

And DPS DKs have survivability? You mean the spec(s) dying more than Ret (which brings a raid buff) and Shamans in general (which currently bring no raid buff)? What great survival

No one brings a DPS DK for utility and it’s a joke you’d even mention that.

How very “pull the ladder” of you after Ele gets a raid buff and has a ton of better utility than DPS DKs.

9 Likes
22

Legit cannot believe I read blood dk mitigation is the same as raid utility AND see upvotes for that trash. Such a bad take.

AMZ is fine raid utility if they want that to be our thing, but I’d prefer something that increases damage for the raid. With how role flexible Druid and Pld are, BR is almost assuredly going to be easy to cover (plus lock) in a raid setting.

Also, unless we get mechanics like the traps in xymox in nathria, our kit is all player only. Does nothing to help the raid.

When we were pushing mythic huntsman in Nath we were down an immunity (Pld, hunter, mage) for our push, so I had to AMS and get BoP externally to play the role of an immunity for one of the shot volleys.

7 Likes
23

If that is the case, the discrepancies between dps vs blood needs to be fixed.
But I disagree. That is like saying darkness is DH raid utility, yet they have arguably the best in chaos brand too.

2 Likes
24

For one of those statements to be true the other can’t be, and I think we all know that the truth is that Unholy and Frost are not always good.

People have been asking for a Frost rework for multiple expansions and Blizz have literally said in the alpha feedback that they recognise what the community wants, but the DEV team feel that breath needs to be the focus.

2 Likes
25

It’s ALWAYS good to bring one of the other classes and people will prioritize those first.
Praying to win the dice roll of best tank or dps spec is not great design.

Ret is tankier than us, can emergency spot heal raid members, brings 2 mandatory raid buffs, sac, bop, freedom, immunity and LOH.

If the choice is between one DK or a second Paladin, the choice is always a second Paladin.
That is bad design.

Grip is super strong when it’s needed, but those instances seem to less and less these days. It also feels like more classes are able to do pushes/knocks so in an organized group it’s very lackluster.

They need to just add another component to insidious chill. Have it give flat %crit or something. That way it’s almost like a full raid buff and we still have grips when needed.

2 Likes
26

Negative IQ take. “Almost” is the whole problem we are trying to address. Every class is ALWAYS required for every fight except DK. It’s ridiculous that we are only required for fights that need grips, while every single other class is required at all times.

8 Likes
27

Everyone in this thread needs to be very careful about what they wish for. Blizzard will implement a raid buff that involves us standing in death and decay.

6 Likes
28

what are you even talking about? DPS DK’s have shown to be the among the strongest in raid content lately. If you don’t believe me, check warcraft logs for the overall mythic statistics in each raid where either Unholy or Frost DK is among the top 5-6 damage dealers across all 26 DPS classes. I didn’t specifically mention Mythic raid content in my original post, but I should have, because the argument of what classes should and should not have a raid buff really only applies to Mythic raid anyway.

If we are talking about Heroic raid, then I could argue that you don’t really need any raid buffs or any raid utility at all and can just zerg through the entire raid in under an hour as I have done plenty of times with different guilds. If you or your guild are not at the point where heroic raid is trivial content to you, then it would make sense why you would not have progress on Mythic Fyrakko rother end bosses and understand why DK’s are so strong.

Unholy’s opener is literally the strongest opener in the game and in a well organized raid group, raid leads will ask Unholy DK’s to pop their cooldowns on burn phases that are fairly common to the point where there’s usually at least 1 boss fight that has one per raid. Also, Unholy DK is so strong, that people lean into it even more because it’s such a good PI target during it’s cooldowns. If you disagree, then you just don’t know how to play Unholy DK, and based on your logs, it looks like I’m right.

No useful utility in raid? You mean like being able to soak almost any magical damage mechanic and not feel it with defensives like AMS, Icebound Fortitude, Death Pact, and then being able to heal back a significant part of that damage with Death Strike? Even if you don’t take any of those defensive buttons, at least you have multiple options to take compared to other classes. Also, EVERY DK should have access to will of the necropolis which is just absolutely insane to have a permanent 35% damage reduction below 30% health so that in those times where everyone else is panicking about to die, DK’s are always tankier.

DK’s have even more utility in things like Death’s Advance that was very useful in fights like Mythic Raszageth and Fyrakk, a 15-yard interrupt on a short 15 second cooldown, access to a blind to CC adds with Blinding Sleet, a slow with their Death and Decay. It seems like the entire Class Tree of DK is just a way to make it survive more and more damage, so please “remind me again how” DK’s are " the spec(s) dying more than Ret (which brings a raid buff) and Shamans in general (which currently bring no raid buff).

Where are you showing that DK’s die more than other specs? How does a class with the option to take all those defensive talents I mentioned above die more than other classes comared to Hunter? I would list out all the defensiveness and utility that every DK has the option to have, but it it just the entire class tree. I looked on warcraft logs for both mythic and heroic death statistics, and both Unholy and Frost DK are middle of the pack when it comes to survivability in raids overall. In heroic, the deaths are similar but still more in favor of being tankier compared to most other classes.

Also, Skyfury is a direct benefit to both Frost and Unholy DK anyway which makes them both stronger. Right now Frost DK is among the top 2-3 targets for Windfury and Unholy DK’s and Frost DK’s both stack heavy mastery. Shaman’s are buffing YOUR damage.

Everything that you have mentioned in your reply just shows the skill difference between more casual players who do heroic raid sometimes, versus people who clear heroic raid for fun in one night and progress mid to end tier mythic raid bosses.

29

you listed a lot of stuff but most of it is personal cooldowns dks use to keep themselves alive, a far stretch from raid ultility. One other little take away is that unholy’s opener is convoluted and horrible, personally id trade a few lower dps slots for a few less buttons.

6 Likes
30

And what happens if TWW isn’t just the same performance as 9.2 through 10.2? What happens if it’s 8.1-8.3 and generally on the lower-mid side? When it’s 9.1 and complete trash? And DPS DKs just supposed to say “Oh well guess I’ll enjoy the bench”?

Does your “high level mythic raider” take literally boil down to “Just hope Blizzard tunes DKs to always be in the upper quartile in DPS like the specs were during Dragonflight and not on the lower end like most of BFA”?

Because it’s not about you and you’d understand that if your head wasn’t so far up yourself. Great, it takes you an hour to clear a heroic raid; it does for me & my guild as well. Does that mean just because I can play without worrying about invites that every single pug player should suck it up?

And if Grip is so good and the damage is always “strongest” then why wasn’t a DPS DK brought to world 1st Fyrakk, a fight where “the strongest” DPS would be wanted and the actual “grip fight” of the expansion?

Oh, right, because Mass Grip is the only form of Grip that matters and that’s entirely locked to Blood DK, which conveniently did see play because hey, look at that, Mass Grip.

And still, by your own logic it objectively doesn’t matter if Shamans have a raid buff because they perform well amongst their respective counterparts. DPS Shamans have oscillated between middle & upper middle of the pack the entire expansion; clearly, the class doesn’t need a raid buff because its DPS alone is a reason to bring it.

You mean like how Ret and Havoc (and soon to be Hunters) can also solo those same mechanics and heal back up just as quick and, in most casts, without having to take a DPS loss to actually heal back up? Also, Death Pact isn’t a defensive it’s a “kill yourself” button. A 30% heal absorb completely kills any use the ability could ever have.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31#metric=deaths
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#metric=deaths
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35#metric=deaths

Would you look at that, DPS DKs dying just as much, if not more, than a ton of specs that bring equal utility and a raid buff. You’ve clearly looked at the list, seen Frost had less deaths in 2 tiers and went “Well gee what are they even talking about!” while completely ignoring that it’s a complete outlier due to its low population.

The fact you wrote this and tried to use this as some form of “gotcha” is absolutely hilarious considering you don’t even “progress to end tier mythic raid bosses” yourself and clearly just dip into mythic on a surface level. If you’re going to try and pull rank, at least actually be good enough to back it up.

It’s very apropos that someone who comes off as very smug and as a know-it-all as you do would also have a “I’ve got mine, screw everyone else” attitude.

You should probably just stick to the Shaman forums.

13 Likes
31

Idk how you all do the back and forth with stupid people on here lol there’s literally NO reason for DK to not have a raid buff, if at any point you’re sitting down and saying yep, every class having a raid buff wouldnt be cool, you’re just wrong.

Plain and simple if BDK is that good just make it so they don’t have access to it or something, its so easy.

People being against cool things is wild, what does WoW lose if DK has a raid buff? (the objective answer is nothing) What does WoW gain if DK does have a raid buff? (the objective answer is something cool for the players who care and NOTHING for those who dont)

3 Likes
32

wow that’s a whole lot of “if” :slight_smile: :troll:

33

2% haste + small damage proc chance on spell cast (as a parallel to skyfury)? Increased damage over time aura? Vampiric leech aura (they just nerfed leech across the board so probably not)? Something with crit? something with avoidance? Theres no way they don’t give us one if we’re the only one left without one.

Grip is too situational to be equivalent to a raid buff and we obviously can’t rely on tuning to guarantee a raid spot while no other class does that.

At the end of the day, even if DKs raid spot is guaranteed, it still feels bad to not contribute to raid throughput like every other class in the game.

1 Like
34

Thats gibberish. Give dk a raid buff or make amz alot more practical.

35

Like saying shaman has ghost wolf so it shouldn’t get a raid buff? That is literally the logic you are trying to use. It makes no sense stop embarrassing yourself. Shaman has the best ranged interrupt in the game, yet you use that as an argument? You mention blinding sleet but shaman has double capacitor totem which is so astronomically better its not even funny. Shamans have hex, purge, they can remove curses from team mates, ANCESTRAL GUIDANCE… ankh etc etc etc

By your logic, they should remove the raid buff to shamans… because clearly you guys just have too much as it is… :roll_eyes:

Enhance shaman got plenty of play and represented the shaman class in hall of fame and mythic guilds all expansion. So should it have stayed how it was and just condemn resto and ele forever because they get their representation?..

Your argument is terrible.

7 Likes
36

Does insidious chill count as a raid (de)buff?

Also warlocks don’t have a raid buff, unless healthstones count which I could understand including.

Do people get excited for rogue’s raid buff (3% damage reduction)? Does that even stack with devotion aura?

Tbh I think a leech raid buff would be very thematic for DKs.

1 Like
37

No. It gives a minuscule reduction in melee swing damage to the player who is least likely to die (your tank), and does not apply in aoe. Further, rogues and warlocks already provide melee swing slows as a part of their kits in addition to the other raid buffs they provide. In no way can this be seen as an essential raid buff, like every single other one in the game is.

Giving your entire raid an extra button to heal themselves is absolutely a raid buff. Not to mention locks also give your entire raid the ability to quickly move to a new location (which can cross unpathable terrain) or avoid a knock back.

Yes and yes. 3% reduced damage taken from bosses is huge.

Agreed!

4 Likes
38

I’d say gate is similar to mass grips. A few fights are absolutely crucial to have that utility and others it’s minimal or useless.

Also does rogue 3% reduction and Paladin 3% reduction stack?

1 Like
39

Yes it does

2 Likes
40

Is it multiplicative since one is mob and other is player?