I’d hardly call it a retcon. Specially the bits about Jaina, Divine Bell and such. We already knew that.
The only new thing (not a retcon) is the bit about the Crucible. Felt neutral, back in BfA, but if I had to bet, I’d have picked groups related to the Alliance races, not necessarily the Alliance itself.
Then the Iron Horde happened and showed us that Orcs “do be like that sometimes” and it wasn’t demon blood which drove them into invading Azeroth.
Calling the perpetrators ‘victims’ is going too far. Saying they might not be “naturally evil” or that “they aren’t necessarily worse than humans” might work better.
This part is true. They experimented on the humans that sought to kill them.
When did this happen? Belves did attack the Amani who attacked them and it has questionable morals because they took over the Amani land. But other than that they fed off of creatures. Didn’t go after civilians.
While it’s true that the leadership may have had some idea what drinking the blood of Manoroth would do, the full implications thereof were not known to them nor was it something that the rank and file would have known.
Also, it was Blackhand who “led” the invasion; he was basically a figurehead for the majority of the orcs to take orders from for the Shadow Council owing to the fact that he was too lazy and self indulgent to challenge them.
Doomhammer was one of Blackhand’s liutenants and decided that He’d much rather be warchief and thus Coup the hell out of him.
Orgrim actually beat the nation of stormwind and forced Lothar into retreat with a relatively small portion of the orcish forces; he had the blackrock clan under him at the time and that’s about it.
In the second half of the conflict the orcish horde would indeed lose, but It’s important to remember that of 6 additional clans, 3 weren’t exactly loyal or supportive (The gap tooth Clan was headed by Rend and Maim who were blackhand’s kids while the Stormreaver’s and Trilight hammer were under the command of Guldan and Chogall respecively) and of these two effectively went rogue to try and access the tomb of sargeras (an effort that was put down by Doomhammer… who ironically did more to save the world then the alliance of lordaeron ever did).
So, not BS just facts about the events of WC1 and 2. Sorry if it ruined your assumptions.
False; By this point it was known that the dark portal was tied to Medivh (who the alliance assassinated during the events of WC1) who had gone completely insane due to the influence of Sargeras. Further the Alliance did in fact launch a counter invasion after the fact that ultimately led to a series of events resulting in the destruction of Draenor thereby killing more people then the horde ever did.
Nope.
The games trump any other writing. I know this upsets you because it undermines your stance but the Games are what we as players primarily interact with and draw our understanding of the broader lore from. This has from time to time been retconned (Stormwind for example was originally the name of a city while the nation was called Azeroth; this would be changed to be the name of the world sometime around WC3).
Further, there is no credible source for information that refutes these events, erego we have no reason to question there legitimacy like we do for Chronicles 4.
Edit: Also, you’ve already shown that you don’t actually respect written sources either, so I’m not sure what sources you think are valid; The movie perhaps?
Split into 2 groups, those that stayed with the Horde and those that followed Magatha
the ones that followed Magatha were EXILED from Thunder Bluff
the ones that were exiled from Thunder Bluff were approached by the ALLIANCE and formed at least a pact with them
So if anyone has the Grimtotem, it is either both or the alliance. But then again, most Grimtotem are currently hostile to both Alliance and Horde so not the best ones to tey and paint the Horde as evil.
Yeah, no. Stormwind was constantly beating the Horde and it was their last attack that Orgrimm knew if he didn’t defeat them that all was lost. He threw everyone and everything including the kitchen sink into that last battle. Only then did they overcome Stormwind. And Doomhammer, WITHOUT drinking the blood, totally supported Blackhand in invading Azeroth. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Those other clans might not have been “loyal” per se but they were definitely supportive, such as Gul’dan creating the Death Knights. To say otherwise is being disingenuous. As for “saving the world”, all Doomhammer did was clean up his OWN mess (Gul’dan and company) that he himself started. He gets NO credit for that. Besides, it was a world he intended to conquer.
What the he!! does them knowing Medivh was behind the Dark Portal scheme have to do with them KNOWING the exact location??
They couldn’t plan, and didn’t plan, any invasion of Draenor because they had NO IDEA where is was until the end of the Second War.
The ONLY plan they had was to close the damn thing.
You’ve lost your argument right here. The game is merely a game, nothing more. Lore comes from official stories and sources because the game storyline is ALWAYS being retconned. You don’t make the rules for Blizzard, Blizzard makes the rules for Blizzard.
What they say goes, not you.
Dude, our side won and you fools were put into camps. Sounds like a win to me.
I would strongly suggest that you play both WC1 and WC2 before you continue this particular argument.
Gul’dan created the death knights because he was in a situation where he was the last living warlock and facing down a very angry Doomhammer who needed him to justify his continued existance. Ultimately he and Cho’gall ran off to open the portal.
The Tomb of Sargeras (WC2 Orc)
Go ahead and look it up for yourself. I’d quote the article to you but My trust levels are apparently insufficient to do so or give you a youtube link.
They would have known where the orcs came from; this may come as a surprise to you but they don’t have the ability to teleport out of thin air.
False. We see in WC2’s expansion that while they did try and destroy the portal it clearly wasn’t enough to deal with the rift and thuse they launched a subsequent invasion (Ironically your namesake was involved in this alongside a few others and we’re able to see the bases they utilized in Hellfire Peninsula).
It’s how I won it actually.
The Games are the primary source of information we have about the world and it’s setting and without them any associated materials wouldn’t exist. Erego: the games > other sources.
And when secondary sources contradict each other or the events we as players expireince? Like I’m going to remind you that according to Chronicles 4 (which is supposed to be an “official canon” Genn Greymane was uninvolved with the events of the battle of Dazzalor. His conversation with King Rastakhan never happened.
Blizzard can’t even obey blizzard’s rules so why should I take this line of logic seriously?
I understand being puzzled, confused, or frustrated with some choices in Chronicle, but the book can’t hurt you if you don’t read it. It doesn’t actually matter.
So? That doesn’t mean Gul’dan wasn’t “supportive” to the Horde. Those Death Knights were a major addition to the Hord’s might.
Are you seriously mental??? Knowing Medivh was behind the Horde does NOT mean they knew it’s location. They didn’t. You’re just arguing for argument’s sake now.
You lost the argument. The game is NOT lore.
Next…
If Blizzard says so, it’s canon. YOU don’t make the rules, Blizz does.
Dude, our side won and you fools were put into camps. Sounds like a win to me.
I guess it’s their way of telling us they’re hurt without telling us they’re hurt.
Guldan “supported” the horde for about as much time as it took to gather the resources to run off to the tomb of Sargeras to try and get access to the dark god’s power on behalf of his master Kil’jaedin.
Are you? Like Stormwind would have been able to figure out in short order where the first raids came from and quite possibly recover documents from the raid on Karazhan that resulted in the Death of Medivh.
You should go and let IMAX study your ability to project. I’m sure they’d happily pay you for the opportunity.
Except it is. You can deny it to your hearts content but it doesn’t change it.
You haven’t clarified the point: when Blizzard contradicts its own writing then how can you determine what is Canon?
My favourite part of this is that he seems to think I’m like erevian or one of the other die hards and thinks that this is going to result in some "epic win’ or the other.
It’s hilarious though that he’s basically arguing that Lore only exists as long as the goldfish can remember it though; I’m half tempted to ask him how he’d respond if Blizzard suddenly decreed that the alliance ~having lost every engagement to the more culturally advanced and civilized horde~ were happy with their new status as tributaries since it releaved them of all of the stress of having to make decisions for themselves.
