So Ardenweald story is as much troll as night elf?

Lore Story Forum
2005

How about a blood bowl tournament to settle grudges? Best solution for any major conflict

Let me address this - because while I know it was a joke, it’s a great analogy.

This game is in part a competitive multiplayer experience whose core is a nearly three-decade old faction rivalry that was defined in 2002 to fit to the contours of what it is today. This faction rivalry is most relevant to the PVP game mode, which has various instanced and non-instanced content, and requirements for its own balancing.

But let’s simplify it. Let’s say that it’s Blood Bowl! Where you can pick from one of four exciting characters and duke it out with the others in a battle royale fight to the finish!

Meta-wise, they’re all pretty much the same. Some have some special attributes and abilities, that really only the most hardcore of people even care about. You don’t have time to worry about stats and theorycrafting. You have a job and a life! So you’re going to do what most people do - you’re going to pick a fighter that suits your personal tastes.

Character 1: The noble human paladin. This guy’s got some pretty cool looking armor. He’s got a hammer, and all around he’s a good guy who hands out candy and divine justice. Also, some people who are really into “the crusades” have been making memes about him. So there’s that.

Character 2: Here you’ve got the musclebound, shirt-eschewing Orc. The guy looks like he came out of Mad Max. He’s got sweet tattoos, and an impractical axe. The guy looks like he could bench press a Volkswagen, and he’s in ALL the promotional material.

Character 3: Next up is your assassin. She’s clad in form-fitting dark clothes, wears a mask that screams mystery and danger. She’s got a pair of long sinister daggers with these green highlights, and there’s this whole cinematic where she sneaks through a town and takes out a bunch of guards like she’s the long lost good Assassin’s Creed character.

Character 4: The druid is a doe-eyed elf in feral-looking armor that looks pretty distinctive. She’s got tons of fan art, but most of it - because the official art and cinematics do this too - don’t portray her in combat with the other fighters, or if they do, it’s because she’s getting defeated in it. She’s got a devoted fanbase left over from the last game, but most of the people who play her aren’t that serious.

So you pick the Assassin, and when your friend asks you say: “eh, the Orc and the Paladin aren’t for me, and the druid sucks.”
“But the druid’s really good! Like, in Mysteries of the Bloodbowl, she fought the other three and beat them easily! And then, in Bloodbowl Mayhem Issue #2, she rooted that assassin, who is evil, by the way and…”
"I don’t care. I literally don’t care. I don’t want to play a character that sucks."

Most people don’t. So in the scenario I described, the druid will go unselected by most people. The druid sucks. Doesn’t matter what page 47 of Mysteries of the Bloodbowl has to say.

What I want is to give that druid some sharp claws and some cool fangs. I want to see some cinematics where she’s beating up on the Orc or the Assassin for a change so that I can feel like I’m just as powerful as the Paladin, or the Orc, or the Assassin.

Now, the Orc player might say “I think my character’s a moron for getting led by the nose by the assassin to fight and lose to the paladin, and I thought the fact that the paladin lectured the character afterward was really weak”, and the Assassin player might say “you know, the assassin used to be this nuanced character, then she turned cartoonishly evil” - and those are valid points - but they don’t attack the problem I’m highlighting with the druid character.

You know what also doesn’t attack the problem I’m highlighting with the druid character? The other characters trying to apologize to her. If I see the Orc backhand her in a cinematic, then have a ‘what have I done’ look wash over his face before he rushes over, tips his fedora, and helps her up before she tearfully thanks him and gives him a hug, I’m going to freaking vomit! This is Blood Bowl! I want her to hit him back! Give me THAT Blood Bowl, and I will play Blood Bowl with you.

Now, for some people, Blood Bowl might not be your thing, and that’s fine. I certainly don’t think that you should be forced to play Blood Bowl. I think it should be its own thing for those who appreciate that kind of gameplay.

But if you don’t, that’s what PVE is for.

2 Likes
2006

Aesthetically it fits night elves & druids best, there’s no doubt, but as others have said it has almost nothing to do with night elves as a race (outside of the ancient spirits, Ysera, etc). It isn’t the Emerald Dream.

I chose my night elf Druid to experience the covenant campaign, but that was because of lore and role play reasons. Any class with a connection to nature fits.

1 Like
2007

Thrall apologized to Tyrande on behalf of the Horde already. While in an official capacity as a representative of the new Horde government built from the ground up with the express goal to make sure another Garrosh or Sylvanas can never happen again. All while the Horde was engaging in an active manhunt for Sylvanas and just prior to promising Tyrande Sylvanas’ head as a show of faith that the Horde is serious about making amends.

You’ve already gotten what you want.

Also holy moly people. I posted in this thread over two months ago and it is still going?

5 Likes
2008

Thrall was not an arsonist, he joined after. He “doesn’t feel guilty” about it. It’s as if Kalia was apologizing on behalf of the Forsaken for the plague at the Wrathgate. Probably.
We weren’t even shown that the Horde would repent of this before Thrall. He simply said, “We have changed the system of government, so this will not happen again. We are sorry.” And the NElves should just believe it? They were not offered bloody sacrifices, they were not even given out the loyalists. The Horde has not been punished! To hurt the Horde and they must endure this pain. Break the circle that they started.
Oh yeah. Sweet madness.

1 Like
2009

Why does this matter? Thrall is a member of the Horde Council and was acting in an official diplomatic capacity. Just because he’s a new hire doesn’t mean he isn’t speaking on behalf of the organization he’s been chosen to represent.

This is irrelevant to the post I made to Morghel about what he specifically said he wanted to see happen in the game.

2 Likes
2010

Maybe we need more Horde? Otherwise it looks like “We hired a new employee, he will apologize, but we will not apologize. He will be our shield, because we ourselves do not feel guilty, but we need to show something like that.”

2011

That’sa lie you have multiple leaders express guilt over Teld, even Lor’themar talks about how he wished he wasn’t blinded by his past friendship with Syl so he could act sooner. Also Thrall is more than just a new hire, he’s the architect of the horde from wc3 and he can still feel guilty even if he wasn’t there because his actions of leaving the horde allowed this all to happen.

2 Likes
2012

Because Thrall wasn’t the one who made the decision to support Sylvanas. That is why him making an apology is hollow.

Right, but their ammends won’t end by simply killing Sylvanas. That is merely the start.

2013

To add onto this, there’s the unavoidable fact that he created the current horde to begin with. It seems logical to me that the chain of responsibility would ultimately go back to Thrall, whether he was part of the horde at the time or not. After all, it’s canon now that the whole “penance in a desert” thing was a prime motivating factor in the Cata/MoP war, which led to lingering resentment which helped kick off the BFA one.

4 Likes
2014

Exactly, so people complaining that Thrall apologizing isn’t something good when in fact if he had never left his duties as warchief things would have been extremely different.

2015

Thrall admits the Horde is a monster, and the Horde will confirm it. M … Horde people won’t like it very much.
So, since the Horde can find Thrall guilty of everything … Shall we sacrifice him to Elune?

2016

It doesn’t matter who is saying the words. The Horde doesn’t have a Warchief anymore. Thrall, as a representative of the council, speaks for the Horde as a whole. That is how governments work. It is how diplomacy and diplomatic missions work.

Surely you can see why Thrall, the single most iconic character in the entire Horde, issuing a formal apology on behalf of the Horde being considered “not a good enough apology” is… A bit frustrating, right? You literally got an apology, but because it didn’t come in the very specific way you imagined it you’re not counting it.

Sure, but the Horde has begun making visible, active strives toward making amends, which is my point. The total reformation of their entire government is a pretty big step but it feels like most people gloss over it like it doesn’t matter even though realistically it is the biggest gesture of guilt a nation can perform. It is both confirmation that they see a problem and the action of making an effort to correct that problem in one go.

1 Like
2017

Iconic yes. But at the time of bfa he had not been involved in the war. It wasn’t him who let Sylvanas do as she pleased. It was everyone else. All of them should have been the ones to offer an apology, for not ousting her the moment she did what she did, and for supporting her for far, far too long.

Reforming their government is great and all. But so far it only really have been shown to benefit the Horde, not the Allaince, beyond that the Horde will be less likely to commit another genocide, which is both a really low bar, and does absolutely nothing for the ones they have already hurt.

Well, we’ll see. Perhaps a miracle occurs and Blizzard actually depicts the Horde making reparations. Or maybe they just mass ress everyone. Both options works with me.

2018

Again though, this doesn’t matter because of how global diplomacy between nations works. Thrall is speaking for the entire Horde as its representative. The entire council. That is how councils work. Each individual member doesn’t need to fly up to Nordrassil and offer their personal apology, that would be a massive waste of their time.

Ultimately you’re just inventing a fairly arbitrary reason to not count this apology and ask for more.

It absolutely directly benefits the Alliance because it stops the Horde from being highjacked by evil warchiefs and used to burn down cities again. Again, we’re discussing global super powers. Nations. Changing their government so that the Horde is a more secure organization is a very big deal. You’re downplaying the significance of it because it isn’t specifically how you wanted to see the Horde take responsibility for their crimes and take action to ensure it won’t happen again.

8 Likes
2019

And that by itself is not nearly enough. It does nothing to make up for their deeds, because it doesn’t help the ones they have already hurt. When they have begun to do that, then I will agree that they are making serious efforts to atone.

1 Like
2020

Nothing is going to be enough for you Morg. Just admit that already

5 Likes
2021

Agree to disagree then. A full restructuring of the only government the Horde has known since arriving in this world IS a serious effort in and of itself and shows an incredible amount of conviction toward changing what they are so future catastrophes cannot happen.

7 Likes
2022

You know exactly what I think is enough. Perhaps if I type it enough times it will finally drill into your head at last.

But that’s the things. Everyone involved, who denounced Sylvanas after she left I might add, gets to walk away scot free. I don’tunderstand how you think that is the right thing, but whatever. And to date, the Horde has done exactly nothing to help the victims of their actions. Nada. Zip. I guess you somehow think that’s enough, though I cannot fathom how.
Well whatever. No point in continuing this. I’m going to bust a vein before we reach any kind of agreement. I can only hope that what you want will not happen.

2023

See, I was being fairly cordial with you. Stating my views and agreeing to disagree rather than turn this into a full blown argument. But this here is more or less you accusing me of having bad morals, which I take as an offense.

You said the Horde has not apologized. I pointed out that they have.

You said the Horde has not taken action to show they want to atone for what was done. I pointed out that they have, just not in the (submissive) way you want them to.

That was the scope of our conversation. You didn’t need to try and paint me with the brush you chose.

12 Likes
2024

Because blizzard isn’t fulfilling the NE power fantasy of dismantling the horde, so any and all lore points will be ignored and claim to not count.

5 Likes