I think we are past help with Sylvanas’ intent, but it should be noted that the deciding factor to get Saurfang on board with the WoT was Anduin’s lack of response to Stormheim.
Sylvie’s argument to him revolved around the prospect that Tyrande and Genn would be pressuring Anduin to pre-emptively attack the Horde (which they were), and that Anduin would be took weak to resist these calls. Saurfang judged Anduin wouldn’t be able to because of his response to Genn and Roger’s attack; as it suggested that at best he was too weak to punish them for an attempted assassination against a World leader … and at worst, complicit in it. Which is a horrific look for an international incident like that.
Simply put, had Anduin even went so far as punish Rogers (who he had full authority to punish) … it would probably have been enough to keep Saurfang off the WoT parade; and if he’s not on it, that parade aint going anywhere. Because you don’t get those that trust his judgement (not Sylvie) on board.
Cute coming the queen of Bad Faith arguements. And I was joking with Alynsa dear. Not my fault or my problem you are offended by that and have to resort to personal insults.
In the most indirect of ways, yes. Much like how Medivh is indirectly responsible for pretty much everything going on currently on azeroth.
But it’s a matter of degrees. And Lor’themar is a lot more guilty for the burning, than Tyrande is for Theramore. Especially since Tyrande didn’t aid the one who destroyed Theramore, but opposed them. Lor’themar, did however aid Sylvanas in acquiring what she desired, even though he didn’t know it.
And not a single one taking part in burning down the tree. Because although nobody disputed the blood elves took part in the war effort to push through Darkshore, you’ve once again decided that by proving something nobody claimed didn’t happen, you think you’re proving a different point entirely.
Taking part in the War of Thorns is aiding in the burning whether you like it or not. Sorry if that shatters your fragile uwu image of Blood Elves. They’re killing innocent civilians and invading Darkshore. They directlly aided in making the Burning possible.
Well, I guess at this point we’re down to the nuts and bolts. And now I’m’a bring it back around to the initial point of dispute.
You feel Lor’themar holds a degree of culpability for the Burning, which fair enough. I’ll go with it for the purposes of the initial argument. But a lesser degree than Sylvanas and, I’ll make the presumption, Saurfang. I’m making that presumption based on the fact Saurfang was actually in command, while Lor’themar wasn’t present. Saurfang, unlike Lor’themar, was in a position to actually do something when Sylvanas went all “BURNIT!!!” and instead did nothing. Lor’themar, being not present, wasn’t and just had to deal with the aftermath either way.
Not to point out the obvious, but Saurfang actually did attempt to stop the bombardment of the Tree, but acted just a moment too slow to stop the initial salvo. But I do get your point. Its very weird to be like “Lor’themar who wasn’t even there is also to blame for Teldrassil”. Which essentially translates into, everyone in the Horde is to blame for that tragedy, and there is no way to fix it.
For all reasonable purposes, let’s agree Lor’themar is third-hand responsible for Teldrassil, just for the sake of it.
The original issue was Lor’themar expressing his approval that Tyrande gets the kill shot on Tyrande and hoping matters end there.
You feel that, as a person third-hand responsible for Teldrassil by committing forces to Saurfang’s command who then got conned by Sylvy, Lor’themar’s comments are inappropriate. He should have been more expressive of his remorse for Teldrassil in this instance, even with third-hand culpability, than his expressed concern that Sylvanas’s death won’t be enough.
This is the root of our disagreement. Even if I’m willing to grant Lor’themar’s third-hand guilt here, I’m still not seeing why it’s somehow inappropriate to have a legitimate concern that the war, which would be bad for both sides, might not be over in Tyrande’s eyes. Mind, he’s not making a judgment here; he’s not saying Sylvy’s death should or shouldn’t be enough. He’s saying what he hopes; that they’re done with the killing.
So what I’m asking is this; where is your actual issue here with Lor’themar?
So, I think I’m getting what Morg is laying down and I’m’a be presumptuous and speak for what I think he’s saying.
He’s not talking blame, in the sense that every Horde soldier should be prosecuted for their crimes.
He’s talking guilt, in the sense of feeling guilt for the actions they took part in or allowed. He’s not necessarily blaming every footsoldier, but more saying every foot soldier should probably feel guilty for their actions.
To add on to this, Tyrande explicitly and vocally refused to sign the armistice. Technically, the war between the night elves and the horde hasn’t even ended, even if the fighting may have paused for now.
Almost. It’s not that he should feel overwhelming guilt about the burning, just a little. But he sure as hell should have sleepless nights over supporting Sylvanas for as long as he did. Admittedly he does show some regret over it, but nowhere near enough in my opinion.
Pretty much. Which, honestly, at the time of the burning only Sylvanas really knew that it was only noncombatants left in the Tree. Even Saurfang momentarily believed her decision to burn it was in response to Delaryn telling her the equivalent of “They wont surrender, the Alliance is here”. Thus promising that the tree would be a brutal Horde meatgrinder.
With this being the case, its not really shocking that most Horde don’t really feel too much personal guilt over it. From everyones perspective but Sylvie’s, that order to “Burn it” would have been more akin to the US decision to Atom Bomb the Japanese mainland instead of devoting to a bloodbath of a ground invasion. Rather than standard WWII Germany activities that most akin Teld to.
Well, let’s be fair. We’re not seeing anything except a single comment, about a single person and his hopes there. He’s talking specifically about Tyrande.
If I’m talking about how I hope Steve gets the dude who burned his house down? I’m not also saying Steve deserved to have his house burned down for leaving giant piles of leaves in front of it. I’m also not showing remorse for Steve’s house burning down. I’m just talking about Steve and his mission of vengeance against the arsonist. Nobody would look at that comment and use it as a definitive statement about my feelings towards Steve’s house fire.
That’s why I take issue with interpreting Lor’themar’s words about Tyrande and her vendetta as a statement on his feelings for Teldrassil.
Maybe he feels horrible. Maybe he feels nothing. We won’t know until he speaks on those feelings, but reading every statement and interpreting his feelings from those is just bad faith.
They lost them all. So, in this expansion about death, Blizzard decided that instead of solving the forsaken’s inability to procreate, it would be better to talk about Teldrassil.
Not just that. All souls in the universe are going to the Maw right now. The Multiverse as there is only one Shadowlands.
But the story only cares about the hecking night elves.
The entire reason they forced Sylvanas as warchief was so that she could trick the entire Horde into killing most of itself. There was even an Ogmott prophecy about this. But can’t focus on that. NEFPA will be furious.
Today the smoke rose from my campfire and took form.
A shepherd, cloacked in the shadows of her past, beloved by a flock of blind sheep.
She guided them over a cliff. Even as they crashed upon the rocks, they never doubted her.
The crows grew fat upon sheep flesh. Her laughter echoed all around.
It’s not enough.
It will never be enough.
As you will see below:
“Heh yeah just mass resurrect the race or placate their kin in perpetuity.”
Only one capable of mass resurrection is Anduin. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
As stated earlier, it will never be enough.
See above.
Here’s a shocking spoiler:
He isn’t written for alliance players. He’s written for Horde players.
No.
Night Elves populate most of the known world. They have more land claims than any one race in the game. Anyone who says “the majority of the race was in Teldrassil” is a liar.
If he had done that one simple gesture, Saurfang wouldn’t have bought Sylvanas’s argument at all.
Pax Kaldorei.
Draenei/Eredar.
Nothing will ever be enough so simply regrow Teldrassil and never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever mention it or night elves again.
I’m not asking that every Horde citizen start a congregation and offer themselves up to the mercy of the Kaldorei. All i’m asking are a few comments here and there. I mean for gods sake the Blood elves should be having flashbacks to what happened to Quel’thalas. An invading force invades and murders most of your population, and destroys your home. Except this time you’re the invaders. Of all the leaders, I feel like Lor’themar should have reacted the strongest, because he knows what it’s like to be on the recieving end of something like the burning.
And I feel like the council, who honestly did far too little, far too late, are more than a bit too apathetic about the whole thing. But I guess we should just throw that on the pile of bad writing that was bfa.
Quit implying that the night elves lost 90% of their race in the attack. Every race but dwarves knows what it’s like to have their homeland sacked. Lor’themar and the blood elves are not going to point at Teldrassil and say “Hmm, just like us.”
