Lor’themar leads a people on the brink of extinction, of course he’s more concerned of a reprisal against his people.
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If I have ever said that, I would be glad if you linked it. Because then there’s a very distinct possibility I have schizophrenia that needs to be adressed.
Doesn’t make it a good look, after helping to significantly reduce the population of another people.
His main responsibility is to the blood elves first, not the Kaldorei. He can be remorseful and also be worried Tyrande will wipe his people out and the rest of the horde
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Then he should be showing that remorse, to both Tyrande and players alike. He sure haven’t so far.
Heck with it. Time to have some fun.
How did he do that again? How did he personally help light the fire that burned Teldrassil? Can you provide a source citing Lor’themar’s actions that helped with the Burning?
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Also did the night elves lose 90% of their population? We’ve had widely inconsistent numbers as to how bad the losses where for the night elven people.
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The only thing we know for 100% certain, is that the survivors overwhelmed Stormwinds ability to hold them all, and we know Stormwind is a pretty damn big city lore wise.
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Civilian numbers took a massive hit. The army was left largely intact because they had been tricked by Anduin into sailing for Silithus. We don’t have exact numbers other than a genocide occurred. And armies don’t tend to be the majority of a people’s population.
Nope, just supported the one doing it for months, helping them drive the Night elves further to the brink of extinction. Course, his soldiers most likely helped set up the scenario that allowed Sylvanas to do what she did, unless they were gone from Darkshore during that time.
We know it was bad. Really, really bad. But I do wish we got actual numbers, instead of this vagueness.
If you go to Darkshore when it’s the Alliance’s turn to do world bosses there you can fight Blood Knights along the shore. Lor’themar deployed his Soldier’s into Saurfang’s army.
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Ok, but you’re holding him accountable for “helping to significantly reduce the population of another people”. Your words. I want to know how he did that, what actions he took that helped.
Emphasis mine.
Because so far, you’re giving Lor’themar personal responsibility for helping the Burning for; standing around after it, and maybe-possibly-could’a had his people being there when the Burning happened, and those people maybe-possibly-could’a helped.
Those aren’t facts. Those aren’t Lor’themar’s actions. Those are nothing-burgers. “Well he didn’t run away after, so he HAD to help!”
Know who also didn’t run away after? Magar, the expert tailor in Orgrimmar. Do you think Magar is also personally responsible for Teldrassil? I mean, he didn’t flee. And maybe-possibly-could’a his fellow tailors had gone off to help burn Teldrassil, we don’t know.
Are you suss that Magar hasn’t sought out Tyrande and apologized? He’s gotta be a cruel sociopath too, right?
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I mean, someone was stitching all those leather boots back together! Totally suss! 
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Fine, i’ll rephrase. His soldiers were almost certainly there during the war of thorns, just like the soldiers of all Horde races, excluding the allied ones, ofc.
He, at the very least, gave Saurfang command over them, to use them during the war. That makes hin guilty by association.
I didn’t realize tailors commanded the Horde army, or had troops to command. Interesting power dynamic indeed.
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All right, I’m going to dial back the sarcasm here as a gesture of goodwill. So.
Morghel, this conversation didn’t start out being about “who has it worse,” at least not primarily. I guess I was the one who pushed it in that direction, and I regret that. For the record, it has never been my position during this entire exchange that the Alliance’s story cannot be improved in any way, or that Alliance players have no room for grievances.
But how it did start was with you essentially telling Horde players that we have no room for grievances. You said that the Horde has not been “dismantled,” that our faction has lost nothing when we lost all of our original leaders, that the new characters are adequate replacements for them in every way. I’m trying to explain that from my standpoint, what’s happened over the last few expansions feels like a dismantlement. It’s not losing just the characters I latched onto back in the day, but also the themes I used to like, and the sense of where the faction was in the world. Whatever comes out of all this self-discovery probably won’t be exactly the faction I originally joined, and I don’t actually think it’s going to be something I’ll like better than the faction I originally joined, either.
Since you admit that you don’t play Horde yourself, I’m trying to explain to someone who hasn’t been through the experience why it is in fact bad. I’ll repeat once again, I’m NOT saying there is nothing to dislike about the Alliance experience; I’m saying no more and no less than that this particular problem is one that you don’t have. (And I do have Alliance characters, btw, so I have at least seen that part of the story.)
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I have never said that you don’t have grieviences. You have many. Lots and lots. But dismantling is an entirely different thing. It’s pretending that the Horde could cease to exist at any moment, when it won’t. Blizzard won’t allow it.
Not my intention. I’ll phrase it differently. I’m sure losing those characters hurt a lot, just like it hurt a lot when the Alliance lost our locations and zones, and got gobsmacked by the Horde. I’m sure it hurt similarly.
I get that, but it’s more a question of a theseus ship. If you replace the parts, is it the same ship as before? It’s not dismantled, at the very least. But I understand, truly do, why you preferred the old ship.
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Interesting.
So he’s guilty (by association, of course) for letting someone else be in charge, someone else who also had no way of knowing that Sylvanas would suddenly “BURN IT”. Interesting reasoning here. Let’s examine it.
If we’re assuming giving someone else command and being oblivious to a third party’s actions makes you culpable for the end result, you’re also ascribing blame to Tyrande (who allowed Varian to command her forces) for Jaina’s actions (an affiliated third party who never communicated her intentions with her allies) for the Dalaran Purge. Tyrande, by your reasoning, allowed those blood elves to be persecuted because while she had no idea what Jaina would do, she certainly didn’t prevent it or even speak out against it.
I don’t blame Lor’themar for showing no compassion, given Tyrande’s blatant racism here.
Neither did Lor’themar.
They have employees who maybe-might’ve helped burn the tree. Does Magar lose culpability for those he leads if they don’t have the title “soldier” now?
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If I give someone a gun, I am partly responsible if they kill someone with it. Lor’themar, and the Horde, allowed Sylvanas to do what she did. That they then supported her afterwards simply further condemns them
Nah, just gave his soldiers to the one who did, who then helped Sylvanas do what she did. Big improvement.
I don’t get your allegory.
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Sure.
But Saurfang didn’t command the tree burning. Sylvanas did.
So your analogy should be “If I give Steve a gun, and Sam gets into a drunk driving accident while Steve is in the car, I’m responsible for the drunk driving accident”.
But you said he gave his soldiers to Saurfang. Now he gave them to Sylvanas? Make up your mind, Morg.
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If Lor’themar was remiss about the burning he wouldn’t have allowed his Blood Knights to remain in Darkshore afterwards. Which he did.
Your analogy is junk. It should be “if I give Steve a gun, and he then gives the gun to Sam, who then kills someone with it, i’m partly responsible.” Which is exactly what happened.
Lor’themar gave his soldiers to saurfang, who then used those soldiers to clear a path to Teldrassil, where Sylvanas then ordered the troops there to burn Teldrassil to the ground. If you can’t see his culpability in this, I don’t know what to tell you.