What you read from my answer is bizarre and strange. I said they are asking for Ashenvale because it has always been their territory since wc3, part of their heartland, where do you see anything about “have it worse”?
The Horde is allowed to own just as much as the Alliance, where does it say anything to the contrary, it was all about Ashenvale just now, which is what the night elves rightfully are asking about, by the way, brought up by yourself.
??? How can you have it worst??? The forsaken just have nothing anymore!!! No reason, no identity, no goal, no nothing… The forsaken just lost everything they were since vanilla… I get it that the night elf lost some number that won’t even be see in game and will probably be forget as soon as the plot will ask for them to have a army back.
I am not even saying that the forsaken specifically have it worst. But they didn’t had it better. This is why its just impossible to have a fair discussion with you. One side is ready to make the concession of saying that it 50/50 while the other side can’t even do it and it absolutely have to be in their favour…
Well a lot of race should have their due and not everyone can have it at the same time. Which is what you do not understand by asking to have something for the 100 time while some race still have nothing.
Get on the line.
Why the heck are you talking about Ashenvale??? The discussion was never about it… Don’t change the subject…
the night elf player ask only for ashenvale…so it is about ashenvale.
And you have post it aswell. YOU EVEN SAID" NIGHT ELF ZONES"
Multi-Million Dollar company. They can afford the effort and they should have thought about the ramifications of their actions before doing what they did.
It’s been said a thousand times over but let me make it a thousand and one. You make something of equal quality for the Forsaken fans to enjoy over on their side of the playground. They deserve it.
Books don’t cut it. They only reach a niche audience of people who are so into the lore they’re willing to spend extra money and you can’t even get most players to take the time to read quest text. It has to be on screen or it simply won’t achieve anything. Night Elves have their moments in books. Books don’t stick like visual media that’s constantly right in your face.
The War of Thorns presented in Elegy and A Good War is less insulting than what we got in game. But you won’t ever hear anyone singing the praises of the written material because it’s completely overshadowed by what’s presented through the game itself.
For some reason the only time they’re willing to spend the money and put in the effort to visually show victories is for Humans or the Horde. If you think I’m making this up then remember that development time and money was taken away from 8.1 to go and fix a bug in a Horde Ashenvale Cataclysm quest of an Orc being better at Archery than an entire squadron of Night Elves and the fix to that bug was to make an entire cutscene out of the display.
They still have characters that can drive their story forward, and I personally don’t believe Sylvanas was “Everything” to the Forsaken, as you put it. But it’s a hard road no doubt.
There’s a reason I said the Night elves got it worse “story wise”. Story wise, they lost the majority of their population, specifically civilians, which has puts their future in jeopardy. All of those who died are suffering in hell, and one of their leadershas followed them there, with a power that seems guaranteed to kill her in no short time. Darkshore is a blighted hellhole, Ashenvale may very well not be theirs anymore, and Teldrassil is just gone. It’s not looking too bright for them, to say the least.
In comparison, story wise, the Forsaken lost their capital, but not the surrounding lands, their population is intact, but their leader left them, and with her gone a part of their culture. But they still have their people. The Night elves do not.
What exactly did the Night elves get that makes them stand out? I just don’t see it. And if you mention bfa then i’ll just counter that the Horde got the whole expansion dedicated to them. Not that it was good but neither was it for the Night elves.
It was never about Ashenvale stop it… It was about all night elf content and all night elf story. You are the only one that bring this up as ONE example. Stop doing like Ashenvale was all the discussion
Oh you mean last day discussion? Tone have been said since than and Ashenvale was never the focus on any discussion here.
Are you keeping up? Seem like you have hard time keeping up with the discussion.
its a part of this discussion, right now, because you think, the alliance/nightelves get or got too much, yeah, compared to the horde.
Well yes and no. The only famous character that they still have is someone that hated them not long ago and that never consider herself as a forsaken until blizzard retcon it. Cailia is even less of a forsaken character.
Yeah but as i said we most compare them with their own situation. Forsaken may have some number, that we don’t even know of, but it doesn’t really mean anything for them. The forsaken are people that cannot reproduce and the only way to keep their number is by forcing dead to be raised. But what reason do they have to do this?. Race need a reason to go forward but forsaken doesn’t had one anymore. The only reason they always did what they did was because their only reason to still continue was to follow Sylvanas. They had some kind of reason to do thing.
Now, the forsaken have no reason to even continue to exist. If it they weren’t a playable race, they would probably just all do what want until the last of them die. They don’t have anyone to follow anymore and we go with the ‘‘following Cailia and changing to be better’’ path, they would just realise how bad their existence is and why they should not raised dead anymore.
The forsaken were always in a weird place where people didn’t really knew why they were accepted and why would they work. Bfa just destroy the little explanation and reason that they had.
Night elf, as bad as they had it, still have a purpose, still have many reason to go on. They still have the leader they followed. They still have land to go and to defend. The core of the night elf wasn’t destroy at all in bfa because the night elf were on a way better state prior to this so they can easily continue even if they got hit ‘‘harder’’.
Imagine the human losing 10% of their people while the darskpear lose 3/4 of their people. The 10% of the human would be way bigger than the 3/4 of the small amount of darkspear. Still, the 3/4 would hit way more the darkspear.
Was a response to :
Which was a response to
Which was a response to:
And all the discussion before that. It wasn’t about one specific subject.
So once again you are the only one that make Ashenvale as the main point when it was never the case.
It’d probably make some twisted sense for a number of forsaken to up and start committing suicide en masse because they have nothing left, like a bitter callback to that vision in Edge of Night.
Just, uh, wait until the maw stuff is done with first.
I’m not sure I actually agree with this. Even back in cata there were Forsaken like the Alchemist in the plaguelands who’s name i’ve forgotten, who left the Forsaken due to them changing, or Lillian, or Zelling, or even bannerbae. The Forsaken can very much be written to have a purpose beyond Sylvanas, because there are already individuals who have displayed this.
So you think it was better when they didn’t have that introspection, and just blindly continued to raise more meat “for the dark lady”?
I think you’re underestimating the Forsaken. They know that being undead sucks. But they can still have goals, and dreams, that don’t have to center around Sylvanas, or any character I might add.
An Alliance of convenience, in vanilla. But I think they have moved beyond that, if we were to learn anything from bfa’s story.
That reason should realistically be to see the Horde dead and done. You can probably guess whether that will be shown or even hinted at, or if they will all get amnesia. I recon the Later.
With almost no one to inhabit them.
No, they just lost the core part of their population. Much better.
What do you think is the “core” of the Night elves? Protecting their lands? Failed at that. Elune worship? Lot of good that did them? Tyrande? On a rendevouz with death. Nature worship? Whole of Darkshore is a smoking crater at this point, not to mention Teldrassil.
Zelling is dead and currently maw’d.
I don’t think Bannerbae ever became a character to begin with, either. People were just trying to force another Zekhan and I think it didn’t catch on.
I’m well aware. I’m just saying that because of undead characters like him, who display what we would call “independent thinking”, there is hope for the Forsaken beyond Sylvanas. Just gotta write them to be more independently minded. No gods, no masters.
Posting this reply to your post on behalf of Kyalin from the Scrolls of Lore forums.
As I’ve been following this thread, I can’t say I agree with Morghel’s approach. The Night Elf and Forsaken playerbases were both screwed over in order to make this current narrative work, and it’s both unproductive and pointless to argue over who had it worse. The Night Elves were once again established as the “free kill” in what was supposed to be a faction rivalry. Our problem is that of being humiliated, onscreen and in stunning detail by the faction rival while being repeatedly denied at a chance to meaningfully hit back - and I’ve been in this “line” waiting for the issue to be resolved since Cataclysm. But I’ve been watching the issue get worse. This is why Zahir brings up Ashenvale. This is why I bring up Ashenvale. This is why a lot of my colleagues bring up Ashenvale. Ultimately we just want a big juicy W, like the one that you got in the War of the Thorns. Do I want it to be as big as the big juicy W you got then? No, because I don’t believe that you should punish the fans of a playable race to the extent that you burn their capitol down and make it appear as though you swept their whole military aside in no more than two weeks, but so long as Blizzard is handing out fiat wins, I do want that big juicy W - something to establish that Night Elves are actually a threat. Then after that we can resolve faction issues where they should be resolved: in a battleground.
Does Ardenweald get me there? No. Does Tyrande screaming about Sylvanas get me there? No. Does her shaming a Sylvanas loyalist who could just emote /chuckle at her get me there? Not really. That’s where I think the disconnect is. Yeah, we’ve got a lot of stuff in the Night Elf coat of paint, but a) they don’t really care about the playable race, except for maybe Ysera? (Although if she really cared so much, I’d like to know why none of her brood did during the war), and b) it doesn’t solve the issues plaguing the race. But, regarding the Forsaken - I’m right there with you (and I think more Night Elf and Alliance posters need to join me here) in saying that they got screwed over - they just got screwed over in a different way. I’m reminded of that one scene from the original Iron Man. You know, when Obidiah Stane subdues Tony and takes away the ‘heart’ that he needs to live? I feel like Obidiah is Blizzard, Tony is the Forsaken playerbase, and the heart was Sylvanas. She was everything to the Forsaken identity, and Blizzard cynically ripped that character out for a narrative that no one asked for, while leaving the Forsaken pretty much to rot. It’s a horrible situation - and we certainly don’t need to diminish that, or act like we can’t improve both issues at the same time. The forsaken absolutely deserve better, and they absolutely need a resolution that’s not Calia now. The Misery Olympics is pointless. You do not need to be crowned “the worst victim to ever suffer” to establish that you have issues in need of fixing - and we’re not going to agree on who that is anyway.
I bet Blizzard forgets to let us save him and Saurfang from the Maw.
“Oh nooooo we forgot Saurfang… oh nooo… darn. Anyway.”
Eh. I’m in favor of a “book resolution”, but I’m also against it.
On the one hand, I really don’t want to see this resolution in-game, because either I’m forced to play through the Horde making amends to the night elves, or I’m restricted from taking part in content involving my faction. There’s no way around this dichotomy. I, the player, do not feel bad for Teldrassil, because I, the player, didn’t burn the tree down, didn’t murder any night elves, didn’t make the decisions involved. I don’t feel particularly interested in going around, collecting fifty ardenberries, bringing them to Darkshore, throwing them in a sacrificial bonfire and bringing the tree back to life so I can get a cut-scene of Thrall and Baine apologizing to Tyrande and showing her the new home they regrew for her people. Or whatever restitution efforts the Horde makes. Because ultimately I feel no personal investment in personally fixing this problem. I would much rather spend that quest time doing something to rebuild my own faction, to find a new home for the Forsaken, to see what happens to those who went full Dark Lady, to see how we’re actually moving forward from here.
But the other side of it, making it all Alliance-exclusive, is feeling cheated from not seeing my side’s characters doing things. That a whole Baine arc or a whole Thrall arc is stuck behind a blue quest-wall. And that feels just as crappy, except now you’re what? Forcing an Alliance player to escort Thrall and Baine through their quest to collect the ardenberries and whatever crap? Instead of hanging out with their own faction’s people? Cool, now both of us have a solid reason to feel unsatisfied from this resolution.
So then book, right?
I used to think so, but not so much anymore. Because you’re right; resolving the biggest in-game atrocity in an out-of-game book sounds like the ultimate cop-out, when a sizeable number of players don’t read those books. And even if they did, talk about an imbalanced narrative. Y’all get to see it when Teldrassil gets burned, get to visit Darkshore and see the husk of the tree, and have that visual stick in your head… But here’s some words to make it all better in a novel? Nah, doesn’t track right for me.
So in the end? I don’t know. I don’t know a satisfying way to handle this without piling more crap on some group. But it absolutely needs to be handled.
One thousand and two times.
Y’know, I did you the courtesy of actually typing a full response, with a both-sides perspective and everything.
And you clearly read none of it. Congrats of showing me once more that you’re too dishonest to bother responding to.