You could say you don’t see that human breathe air, and you’d be lying then too.
We’ve had to deal with night elves far more often than trolls and good lord am I hecking sick of them.
You should have been arguing that point. Instead, you’ve been arguing that Ysera has no place in night elf lore at all. Kind of disingenuous to argue one thing, but claim your argument has actually been about something else entirely, something you never actually argued with anyone because literally no one said Ysera’s presence in Ardenweald has a single thing to do with the night elf story in Ardenweald (presumably you mean the Night Warrior questline here)
But even then, the disingenuousness only escalates. Because the posts you have been targeting have clearly had nothing to do with what you now claim you were “arguing about”.
Because I never mentioned, not a single time, a connection to the night warrior questline, nor implied Ysera was involved. Hell, I don’t think I mentioned the night warrior bit at all. The only thing I have been arguing is that the color palette, the “magic enchanted fae forest” element, the presence of Ysera and Ursoc and so forth, the “grown into trees” architecture, that all of that has a very night elf vibe.
So for you to jump on one of my posts to say “no, you’re wrong, because Ysera isn’t at all affiliated with the night elves”? Yeah, hard pass on this misdirection of “like, I was only like saying? That Ysera’s story in Ardenweald? Yeah, it wasn’t interacting with the night elf story.”
Nah sis. I ain’t that girl who’s gonna fall for a basic-level trick like that.
If you want to pretend the whole argument has been a mistake? Sure, cool. But be honest about it or don’t bother bringing it up at all. Poor lies won’t fix it.
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That was literally my first post in this thread, I’ll have to quote myself now.
Ysera being there doesn’t mean it is night elf lore. But you jumped in with a derailing point.
I wasn’t saying that. In my posts I have been saying just because Ysera is there it doesn’t mean it’s night elf lore.
So again, Ysera is involved with the night elf history, but her being in Ardenweald isn’t night elf story.
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Sure. The problems is a goose and gander one. Many of the same people who declare Ysara Night Elf dismiss Draka as not having anything to do with the Horde.
So, let’s play this out. For the sake of argument, let’s assume the arguments people are using are correct. Now we need to apply the same logic to the other zones.
Maldraxxus is Horde. It is aesthetically most similar to the Forsaken (as much or more similar than the Night Elves to Ardenweald). Additionally both its primary characters are connected to the Horde. Draka is the mother of the founder of the Horde making her clearly a Horde character. Mograine was a citizen of Lordaeron that was killed and raised by the scourge, the same as the Forsaken. So, he is a Forsaken lore character. There are no Alliance characters at all.
Bastion is also Horde. Aesthetically the closest match is Mulgore. And the primary lore character is a former citizen of Lordaeron who was killed by Arthas, like the Forsaken. So, he is a Forsaken connection. No Alliance character.
Revendreth is not really close to either. You would really have to stretch to connect it. But when you start stretching you will find Horde first. So, lets just call it neutral.
So, if we really accept the arguments calling Ardenweald a Night Elf zones, we have to call TWO other zones Horde. That is two one Neutral, one Alliance, and two Horde. So, what is the Horde’s complaint here?
Goose and Gander. All or nothing. The same kind of reasoning has to apply across the board. Either the Horde gets two zones to the Alliance one or none of the zones are really tied to either faction. And in both cases, the Horde doesn’t really have a complaint here.
For note, I am firmly in the none of the zones belong to either faction camp.
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This is a huge reach. I can buy the logic of Maldraxxus (though I don’t agree with it or the Ardenweald stuff, to be clear, they don’t seem associated). But Mulgure is just plains and some mesas. Bastion is more rolling hills. As well, the trees and architecture certainly isn’t the same as Tauren. Uther was never Forsaken, so just being from Lordaeron is no more a connection than Forsaken all used to be humans. So it’d be like saying Stormwind is Forsaken. Uther himself was directly even a member of the Alliance.
I understand you’re trying to make a point rather than something you believe, but this doesn’t sail to me even for the sake of argument.
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I am not really so sure why zones have to be “horde zones” or “alliance zones” and I think it is likely pretty bad for the game to have this sort of split where zones are for sure intended to be neutral. You cannot get more neutral than cosmic afterlife realms which serve every timeline and strange alternate existence. The beings of the Shadowlands repeatedly have no clue what we are or where our world is.
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I am 100% down for this.
Hard no. As people keep pointing out, y’all keep confusing the Scourge and Forsaken. Maldraxxus is 100% Scourge-like. From pockets of Icecrown glacier melt for no good reason, to the heavy bone architecture, to the necropolis, to the weird mushrooms like you see in the Plaguelands… All Scourge, don’t see much of any of it in the Forsaken areas. Hell, Maldrazzus bleeds Scourge so hard the devs even had to make a weird retcon that the nerubian architecture that was the basis for the Scourge, was itself based on Maldraxxus. You could easily drop Maldraxxus in place of any Wrath-era zone, degrade the graphical quality and it’d fit near seemlessly.
Grass plains, sure. But the architecture seems more draenie-like, which is also a real poor match. TBH, Bastion’s the hardest to pin down. This zone, if anything, is the “neutral zone”.
Uhm… Venthyr are discolored San’layn, the buildings echo actual Forsaken architecture as seen in every Forsaken town… Revendreth absolutely has a mix of blelf / forsaken vibes. IDK how you’re missing that.
That when we say “hey dudes, this place seems awfully nelfy”, you guys will go so far as to headcanon retcon away whole swaths of night elf lore, something we thought you guys actually liked, just to scream at us “BUT NO IT DOESN’T FEEL THAT WAY TO YOU, YOU UTTER FOOLS!!!” Also the promised trolly bits either never got in the game, or were a lie from the start.
The only people who seem to think people catching a night elf feel from Ardenweald is a complaint are the Alliance posters insisting it is, because a Horde poster said it.
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Tribalism, bro. Blizzard has been fomenting that for years.
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I think the fundamental break in this argument boils down to the idea that Alliance fans have been so neglected in terms of internal Alliance stories they don’t consider participation of reps strongly associated with the Faction as being “Alliance”. While Horde fans, without our broken mess of underused, underdeveloped, and certainly underpowered characters, resulting in very little representation in these big bad story arcs considers heavy focus on Alliance/Alliance-Neutral characters as “Alliance stories”. We’re just kind of along for the ride.
In essence, for an Alliance fan, “Internal Alliance Issues” is “Alliance Content”. Story dominance by reps and themes of an external threat is not an Alliance story. Horde fans, who have absolutely horrific experiences with what Alliance fans would quantify as Horde Expansions (due to that focus on internal Horde issues) … have traditionally had very little input in External threat stories. Which are historically the best content to get lasting rep growth. This factor extends to individual races as well. Like the type of Ysera focus, aesthetics, and themes of Weald.
Its why for Horde fans Legion was absolutely and Alliance Expansion, since you could have completely written the Horde out of that story and you’d only have to change Surumar. But for Alliance fans, Legion was not an Alliance expansion. Same goes for Ardenweald here.
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I guess. Why can’t we all just eat some pancakes.
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I’d gladly discuss WoW lore, civilly, with some of you over a plate of pancakes. I’d even offer to make them.
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I’m not sure why some people insist that something having a certain feel reminiscent of a specific race has to equate to “Alliance zone”, “Horde zone”, “Night Elf zone” or “Murloc zone”.
If I’m saying, for instance, that Nazmir reminds me a bit of Dustwallow Marsh (work with me here), nobody thinks I’m really saying Nazmir is a neutral zone, or a zone in Kalimdor, or has ogres and Theramore footsoldiers in it. I mean, maybe some goober might think that, but certainly not to the degree people here keep making it out to be.
Yet here we are. The very obviously, very clearly, 100% for realsy reals real neutrally aligned, Night Fae ran, not owned by either faction, has become an “Alliance zone”. Because some of us get a nelfy feel and others don’t, and we shall all DIE ON THIS HILL BECAUSE YSERA NEVER EXISTED IN THE NIGHT ELF LORE, ELUNE NEITHER, ALSO THRALL BECAUSE WHY NOT, AND I WILL FIGHT YOU WITH EVERY FIGHT I HAVE LEFT TO FIGHT WITH IN THE FIGHTY FIGHT TO END ALL FIGHTS!!!
Gahd. I’m legit worried how people will take it when I say the Arbiter kinda makes me think of a spirit healer for absolutely no reason. I expect it’ll start off with “OMG the Arbiter isn’t even Holy Priest aligned, stop saying she is” and quickly descend into something something Thrall.
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That was the point I was making about all of them.
Mulgore is the closest match. I don’t think wide open plans makes it Tauren. But it is about the same as saying the trees in Ardenweald make it Night Elf.
And the trees and architecture in Ardenweald certainly isn’t the same as the Night Elves. Again, the point I was trying to make. If you stretch to find Ardenweald to be Night Elf aesthetics you have to apply the same stretch to the others.
Same homeland. Same king. Same history right up to his death. He is a cultural figure in Forsaken history. And he has more connection to them than then modern Alliance.
So where the Forsaken. The Forsaken were the citizens of Lordaeron. Uther was a citizen of Lordaeron. The Forsaken were part of the Alliance of Lordaeron (what it was called) at the same time and in the same way as Uther was. He died a citizen of Lordaeron, just like the Forsaken. His connection to the Alliance was through Lordaeron. He was not part of the Alliance after that as he was dead. He has no more connection to the Alliance than the Forsaken.
People tend to forget the Forsaken were Alliance before. All of Lordaeron’s history is their history. Heroes of Lordaeron’s past were their heroes. Uther was a hero of their history.
You keep confusing forest with Night Elves. The whole point is, that aesthetically Maldraxxus is just as close, if not closer, in aesthetics to the Forsaken as Ardenweald is to the Night Elves.
Sure, go with that. I was more thinking about a real lack of character hooks. Aesthetically it is certainly that, and I have even said that in the past. But, if you want to call it Horde, sure. It just reinforces the point I was trying to make.
That is absolutely not true. There have been numerous complaints.
At the end of the day, I don’t believe any zone belongs to a single faction. Ardenweald does have night elf story elements (notably in the campaign). But it also has Horde story elements. It is not a night elf look, it really only has a passing resemblance. The same is true. Maldraxxus only has a passing resemblance to the Forsaken with the undead, rivers of goo, etc. Etc, etc. In the end, it is a stretch to classify any zone as an X-race zone.
I have said previously that I don’t even think that is wrong. I just think we need to keep in mind where it is something we are making a connection with, not something Blizzard did. It is fair to bring our own take and make our own connections. It is not fair to suggest Blizzard is favoring the Night Elves (as some posters absolutely have).
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Not to point out the obvious, but if were to equate Bastion to anything we’ve seen before … those there aesthetics would be going to parts of Argus. Just dial up the wattage to absurd degrees, and make it less ruined and bam. Mulgore is a step plain … so using it as a comparison here is being pretty deliberately obtuse. Looking at Ardenweald its very, very disingenuous to claim a Giant Fey Wild Forest in perpetual twilight, dominated by Emerald Dream aesthetics; Ysera memories and important relations; and centaur nature caretakers doesn’t strong evoke NE images.
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You keep ignoring the rest of my comparisons to fixate on one of two points.
If your point is that certain zones have a certain feel and that certain people might notice it more than others…
Welcome to the same page I’ve been on since drop. Good to finally have you on board. Maybe you can tell the others to stop telling me I’m wrong about this now.
About the lack of trolliness when we were told there would be trolliness. Yes, there have. But not that catching a night elf feel from a zone is a new way of saying “DAMN YOU ALLIANCESESES!!!” Y’all made that up in your heads.
Maybe this is the problem. Y’all seem to think saying “Ardenweald has a night elf feel” is the same as saying “Ardenweald is the night elf zone”. And I’m sure there are people actually saying it is. But y’all been arguing with people who’ve been talking about the feel, the vibe they’re getting from the zone as if they are assigning it solely to the night elf race… Even when those people go out of their way to explain “getting a vibe from X” isn’t the same as “belongs to X”.
Then y’all should be arguing that with those posters. Because you’re being disingenuous when you come after my points as if I’m saying anything about night elf favoritism. Worse still, when you (general “you” here, not you specifically) then make painstaking efforts to demolish your own races’ lore just for some hopeful chance of “being right” or “winning the argument”. It don’t feel anything like you’re arguing about some attribution of favoritism towards night elves when you’re shredding their history to bits by saying characters who had a prominent role in their history were effectively meaningless to them entirely.
But for real, Revendreth belongs to the Horde now, because I have claimed it.
Your comment was ‘we need to apply the same logic to other zones’. It is a reach using that very logic, not just in and of itself. Your example doesn’t fit that goal.
The closest match would be Arathi Highlands, off hand. Or a bright Gilneas. Mulgore is hardly near the top on closeness.
The thing is, it isn’t even open plains. They’re rolling hills and rocky outcroppings. At least Ardenweald has a blue/purple color scheme and giant trees.
Certainly? It has more similarity than Tauren to Bastion by a league. At the very least Teldrassil had some similarities there in regarding the use of giant stumps and trees as housing.
I am. The problem is, you’re stretching this incorrectly.
And? That’s an asinine association. Stormwind humans have a king. They live in a kingdom. They’ve fought the Scourge. They have paladins. They even have undead (Death Knights) with them. Still doesn’t make them Horde or Forsaken. Clearly this stretch doesn’t fit.
???
That seems doubtful. Whereas he’s definitely an icon to humanity.
Where is Uther now? Not in the Horde.
Where are the Forsaken now? In the Horde.
The Forsaken chose to betray the Alliance. Uther never made that decision. The Forsaken have gone through numerous things that Uther hasn’t that places him closer to his original state (Alliance) to the current state of the Forsaken.
Was. Your confusion is that you’re pretending that we’re judging the Forsaken and Uther as though their stories end right at the Third War. When the Forsaken’s story went hard away from the Alliance (betraying Garithos and joining the Horde). Whereas while Uther’s story has involved a lot of non-Alliance stuff, it hasn’t involved anywhere near the free choice to betray or abandon the Alliance.
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…Uther’s Alliance of Lordaeron is as dead as he is. He has never been part of the alliance known in WoW. He treats all races equally in all content we see him in. Arguing Uther is either faction just makes me wanna facepalm.
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The current Alliance is a continuation of the former Alliance. Like half the nations from it never left.
I’m not arguing he is Alliance. But if we’re in this extreme hypothetical of stretching any connection, he’s more Alliance aligned than Horde.
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This is making the assumption that Ysera is somehow an alliance rep, she doesn’t represent the alliance or the night elves. I could see if you were making that argument for like Khadgar, but it’s not really relevant when people are trying to say Ysera story = night elf story, you can say it’s a night elf “vibe” but it’s not a night elf story and she doesn’t represent the night elves or the alliance.
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