And there might be some truth to that, but now you’re asking players to do something that’s harder and that will take longer. Only now…completion isn’t a given. That’s going to be a hard sell. If I can get the same reward in half the time, I know which option I’m taking.
I don’t see how or why Bliz should force the OP to play Horde.
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Adorable, but you know what I mean. 
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I know you’re just throwing doodoo at the wall to see what sticks, but immunity to interrupts after 2? Assuming the scaling is increased, SoA wouldn’t be doable at any meaningful level. Free casting groupwide AoE? That just becomes an unsolvable puzzle really quickly. I’m sure there are other examples as well, but this one really sticks out like a sore thumb.
Sure. And Heroic Raiding can be hardcore. Does that mean they should do away with Mythic Raids? I mean, as long as you’re jacking up the difficulty on the casual progression path, you could also lower the difficulty on hardcore progression. Call it what you want, but there was a great casual end game in WotLK that was centered around accessible dungeons, and now we have this “casual” requirement that you need KSM to fully participate in the valor system. Dance around it all you want and claim that the goalposts have simply been moved to where you believe they should always have been. It’s not bringing back the 40% of players that bailed last quarter.
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OK. 1000+ neckbeards on the forums alone:
You still can participate in using valor. You are looking at the system in a binary way. There are several goal posts, each for a different type of player. There are those who won’t do anything more than M0s and they can upgrade to 200. Then there’s the +5s, +10s, and then +15’s. No one is forced to get KSM if they don’t want to. No one needs the gear to get things done, they want the gear. Casuals have opportunities at different goal posts, they just have to choose what their goal is.
Just the nature of it, imo. That environment is not very PuG friendly, so of course PuGs are more prone to toxicity because there is no accountability, whereas with a guild or friends, players are generally more willing to help or learn. It’s a much more tolerant and understanding dynamic when there is less anonymity and more consequence for abusive behavior.
I would say 99% of my keys have been from full pugs and the times I have run into toxicity when requiring discord has been zero. The whole RIO thing developed because of pugs and when used properly does make a significant impact. Like you said if you are running with friends of guild, they don’t need to know IO.
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I’m actually putting blame on the seasonal affix. If there is anything that involves getting a certain percentage at an exact moment, you can bet there will be more issues.
At least the awakened affix let you choose your own routes and was OK if you mispulled something.
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It can be designed as raids are. Most wipes on technically difficult bosses don’t happen because the enrage is hit.
A neat twist would be coming up with ways to actually add time in your favor, but it would probably come across as a gimmick after a while.
I’m guess OP got declined to a +15
To the forums!!!
Will this dungeon system with no timer, that gives great gear, be like a mini-raid and take coordinated groups maybe 200 pulls to clear?
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You could. In that scenario, completion is the challenge, but you get nothing if it doesn’t work out. I’m not sure that many players are on board with that. You already have raiding to scratch that itch.
Imo have to throw ideas and then reject them. That’s how ideas work, I came up with that stuff in 1 minute… so clearly there are other ways to approach this.
Imagine thinking that the players have control over what blizzard does… let alone 3% of the player base (the amount of hardcore raiders their are) 
Seriously get off your high house bud.
If players ACTUALLY had an influence on blizzards decision we wouldn’t have conduit energy anymore and the covenant ripcord would have been pulled in beta.
Seriously raiding is the worst way to gear right now, meanwhile m+ all you gotta do is an easily little +14 key a week and you get a mythic quality piece out of it.
Just because some made it doesn’t mean everyone could have. My guess is that, given the mad rush to get new players into end content vs the unlimited time they used to have to learn their class and get into the game, the percentage of new players that broke in without carries is tiny.
We often see players point at some spec that is bottom of the barrel, let’s say how feral often is. They find one guy, ONE GUY who is doing great, and make the bizarre claim that if the best player in the world at that spec is doing great, that means nothing is wrong, even if he’s the only one in the top 1000 dps.
And that’s what you’re doing. There aren’t plenty of new players or casuals trying to break in and succeeding. You’re looking at elites who have connections. Why would they be complaining? It’s the players who have been locked out who are of course complaining. And overwhelmingly they are the ones who have quit after being mocked from being unable to get started by you and your ilk.
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Yeah, I was just offering a reason for why I think that one idea wouldn’t work. I dont think I prefaced my statement very well.
I don’t think you played the beginning of Cata. Grim Batol would like a word.
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You’ve finally touched on the key.
People who want a completion based dungeon system don’t prioritize efficiency. They prioritize the experience of the other play-style because it is more fun for them. The “efficiency” group who will gladly skip any boss in any dungeon that isn’t a mandatory pull are motivated by completely different values than those who want the style of dungeon they are describing. I find it interesting that so many who value efficiency so much are so blind to the existence of people who prioritize other values.
Note: I used “prioritize” multiple times. This is intentional and important. People who want the kind of dungeon they are describing ALSO value efficiency, it is simply lower on the list of priorities than the fun they derive from an original Grim Batol style challenge.
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