The kid is trying to power flex the fact that he runs the same numbers as the rest of us. It’s actually a really good joke, lets also think about how many theorycrafters may forget things (which is why icey, vs noxxic are different in their numbers often).
The kids a nobody flexing that he has an item that was added to the game a decade ago.
I needed like one post to know he was not worth the time.
No, hes more of a joke, like a bug i could careless.
He thinks the threshold to be considered a Raid tank is trial by theory crafter. In reality, it’s more of a simple conversation with a savvy raid lead to find where you fit into mechanics the best. Theory crafting is hardly necessary. Just like warrior, stack armor health and some melee/spell hit and you’re good to go. You’ll definitely take more damage but it’s so doable I’m doing it in half dungeon gear.
Trying to insult me by self-deprecating seems counter intuitive… is English your first language? I’m obviously not trying to impress anyone, but if you’re going to throw around the claim that I’m a “nobody” you might want to try to be accurate.
Also… you’re not a theorycrafter.
That’s a funny way to say you can’t validate it…
Do you often coin nonsense terms? Just wondering.
See you can’t make a dumb claim like this when you just said:
Between you and Noori’s failed attempts at insults… I’m beginning to wonder about the state of wannabe-Tank Shaman.
They are not. A Shaman cannot survive Broodlord’s Mortal Strike because they cannot reliably remain uncrittable. Even a non-crit MS can kill a full EH Shaman, complete with all the Armor/Health consumables and buffs, if the MS is in the upper quarter of Broodlord’s weapon range.
I haven’t messed with how reliably a Shaman can endure Firemaw/Ebonroc/Flamegor’s Thrash mechanic, but given the Shaman has no Taunt ability it really doesn’t matter.
As I already pointed out in your log, you survived a bottom 10th percentile of an MS and dropped to 4% Health with the Blast Wave that immediately followed. Had Broodlord simply hit you with an upper 25th percentile and no Blast Wave at all and you’d have died outright.
Threat means nothing if you can’t survive.
None of which saves you from a critical hit from the MS.
If you can’t guarantee a non-death from 100-0 despite full buffs/consumables/appropriate gear, you are non-viable. The melee hits from Broodlord are weaker than Vael and Nef. The only reason he hurts is because his MS is a 500% modifier on top of his normal damage, including the variable portion of his melee. If Broodlord didn’t use MS, he’d be the weakest damaging boss in the instance.
Your log definitively proves you are non-viable from nearly dying to a low-end MS.
Funny… you didn’t Tank any of the drakes at all.
I’ve seen full prot warriors get torched multiple times in this raid. By your logic, nobody is a raid tank, because everyone, even warriors, are susceptible to being taken down in one hit. I got taken down to 4% by two hard hitting abilities back to back, with no flask or world buffs and in half dungeon gear? The bar you set was surviving a MS on brood lord, I did that and then some, while leaving over 2k health and 500 armor on the board. A Shaman who’s gear reflects farming MC for 2-3 months would face roll brood lord.
By the standards you set a few weeks ago, surviving MS on brood lord, shaman tank are viable. I did it in far from optimal gear and minimal buffs (no world buffs no flask). I did it with trash gear and no prep. You’re moving the goal post again, even after I made your qualification in the worst possible set up lmao.
You may have an item named after you, and maybe the devs gave a crap a decade ago, but now you’re a lowly troll. Oh how the mighty have fallen 
Yes, because of failures in play. Viability isn’t measured by someone failing to put up Shield Block and neglecting half their consumables and dying as a result of no Healing over 4+ seconds.
No. This is your misunderstanding.
A Warrior and Druid can guarantee that with gear/consumables/buffs available prior to killing Broodlord that while sitting at 100% Health they will not get 100-0 before a Healer can respond. For Warriors it is pretty trivial, they don’t have critical hits to worry about and can easily achieve the necessary EH to eat a max damage MS. For Druids it is a bit dicier because we need to be able to eat a max damage critical MS, but we can achieve well in excess of the EH necessary to do that.
For the record, with CoR and 5/5 Imp DS on Broodlord, the EH necessary to survive a max damage critical MS is 33,142.85. Shaman cannot hit that value, not even close.
You have to survive the actual hard hit, not the anemic one that may never occur again. You have to hope RNG in his swing spread and your Avoidance favors you, or you die, regardless of what gear you wear, what buffs your bring, what debuffs are on the boss, and what your Healers do.
That is the very definition of non-viable.
It is why Warriors and Paladins were strictly non-viable to MT Lich King on Heroic-25m, they simply couldn’t endure Soul Reaper plus an AA without exploding.
You failing to understand viability isn’t my problem.
Nah you confuse optimal with viable. You said that surviving MS and brood lord was the goal post, I did that, now you’re changing the goal post for what YOU consider viable. I’m already considered viable by a vast vast group of players spanning dozens of guilds, I’ve also tanked raids for at least half a dozen guilds. The people who matter know I’m viable.
I’m just proving that you’re a troll, troll. You set one standard, we’ll meet it, then you change the standard, entirely or slightly is irrelevant, and the cycle repeats a few weeks later. We’ve gone over every hurdle you’ve you’ve put up in order to meet YOUR definition of ‘viable’, just for you to add another. Get over it dude, shaman can raid tank, and you’re just a sad troll.
Optimal is killing the boss fastest while surviving the easiest, not merely capable of surviving.
Lol yeah exactly, viable is merely surviving. I did more than merely survive, I ran high enough threat to prevent any dps from dying when the tank died, and I also had enough survivability to pick up the tank slack, not once but twice, and save the wipe. That’s viable. That’s more than viable, considering I’m in more than half dungeon blues and had no world buffs or flask. That’s definitely viable lol
You merely survived a near-best case scenario with a fraction of health remaining. That’s the whole point. Any class that cannot endure the worst-case is non-viable. It is no different than an undergeared Druid trying to Tank by saying “well he didn’t Crit me so I’m good!” when a critical hit can splat them 100-0, or Warrior pressing their luck by wearing too much non-Plate.
If you have to rely on RNG to survive, you’re non-viable. RNG is what saved you.
That’s RNG. Shaman are simply too squishy to reliably survive Broodlord. You have to hope for lower range swings and/or Avoidance to prevent the MS instadeath.
Bro just ignore the kid. He obviously has mommy daddy issues, probably one of the drama queens from the “letters” community, who has that need for attention.
Just ignore him and he will go away. Its clear his 10 year old boots is not impressing anyone. He may want to pick up a new pair at payless or something.
the only thing is that is going to 1 shot me is a crit from one of the two most powerful swings in the instance, and that’s, to you, what declassifies me from being viable? Dude get real. Those abilities would one shot druids too, and they give any warrior not going deep protect problems as well. Simply put, only an extreme minority of warriors are gearing that way right now, insinuating that the small possibility of a 1 shot on 1/4 bosses in the raid makes it non viable is silly. If you want to boil it down so trivially, I’m 100% viable for all but two bosses, and on those two bosses there is a very small chance that I get 1 shot when fully buffed and in the correct gear.
Actually, he is ignorant of mechanics.
Blocks work like resistance, some of them block partial damage. Interestingly, Blocks of any type prevent critical and crushing attacks, thus the need for defense as a shaman is not really required to avoid CB. All you need is a high block change and the issue really just go’s out the window.
On top of this we rival warriors in block/parry, and we have the dodge of druids (superior to that of warriors). Our mitigation is out right superior, and our threat generation is better on equal gear footing.
Earthskin further is effectively a 17% armor buff when talented, which means our DR is superior to warriors. We don’t need cool downs because our mitigation is outright better then warriors.
Once in every 7-8 autos we might get hit a little harder, but that however does not anyway invalidate shamans as a tank, just as it does not invalidate druids as a tank.
Add to that the benefit of being able to apply mana regen, and utility to the raid.
If blizzard had created mail with lots of +defense, we’d definitely be the best tanks in wow.
Careful you’ll poke the math bear and…
Oh no… you done it now, there he is…
MATH SWIPE CRITS YOU FOR 9000
Parseless aura fades…
Oh no doubt, but we’re not operating in such a world.
This is actually not correct. You have to get miss/dodge/parry/block values high enough to start pushing critical and crushing hits off the attack table, which only happens at over 85% total miss/dodge/parry/block chance, or some other retardedly high percentage I don’t concern myself with. That is to say, avoidance and block chance do not reduce your chance to be crit or crushed until you’re pushing their total values above 85% and thus pushing the 5% crit and 15% crush chance off of the attack table. Up until that ~85% threshold, blocks do not prevent criticals or CBs, the chance that those two attacks still happen remains the same until they are pushed off the table, or def rating reduces crit%. This is why you see some shaman tanks taking 5/5 ancestral knowledge instead of 5/5 shield specialization. When you’re taking 5k per hit, blocking a swing and preventing ~200 dmg is pretty trivial. Having more mana gives more threat and raid utility. It’s up to the player to make the choice for their game play, I definitely still rock shield specialization, every little bit helps.
Not the only thing, but an easily determined guaranteed, and yes. It does.
They don’t with regards to Druids, but we have to gear appropriately for it, same with Warriors. That’s the difference between the viable and non-viable Tanks: the viable Tanks can gear around the one-shot.
That’s not how the hit table works at all, and this is why you should stay out of theorycrafting threads.
The hit table has a priority in terms of what occurs based upon your total stats, and unless you achieve a total amount of Block/Dodge/Miss/Parry sufficient to overtake the prioritized segments for Crushing Blows and Critical Strikes, you don’t actually change your chance to be Critically/Crushing Hit.
Critical Strikes are 5.6% of the Hit Table, only reduced by completely covering the entire Hit Table with Avoidance stats, by getting sufficient Defense to reduce it to 0%, or some combination of the two.
Crushing Blows are 15% of the Hit Table, only reduced by completely covering the entire Hit Table, minus Critical Strikes, with Avoidance stats.
Shaman cannot achieve either.
You do not.
Dodge doesn’t save you from Crits/Crushes unless you shove them off the table. Avoidance and Healer Mana aren’t the limiting factors for Shaman, minimal survival is.
This is completely and laughably false.
Not even close.
You do realize I was reading from his log, right?
Close enough to make the point, and you are correct, although I’m not sure avoiding Shield Specialization is ideal. I’ll know tonight, my Shaman module is done.
Back when BC popped, my friend rolled a dreanaei shammy, and a few of us rolled new toons to run with his shammy, and he tanked everything on that shammy through UBRS.
I thought he did really well with it.
Actually, it requires only block at 75%.
Any Block, Partial or full prevents that attack from critical or crushing blows, it is unknown if this applies to white damage, but it is definitely known to block yellow damage.
It’s actually not in the long term.
The content does not matter to me Fasc it is your approach that gets me going =) Lighten up a little and have a laugh, smile it feels good you big mean math bear.
No, it requires a combined total of 102.6% where the only possible events are Dodge, Block, Miss, or Parry. If you do not have a total of 102.6%, then the remainder will be Critical Strikes up to 5.6% (minus whatever Defense you have), then Crushing Blows up to 15%, and then any remainder will be Normal hits.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Block is a separate event on the Hit Table from Miss, Dodge, Parry, Hit, Crush, or Critical. This is irrelevant with regards to a special (yellow hits) or normal (white hits).
Again: Stop spreading misinformation.
The only thing a shaman tank has to really watch out for are critical hits on special moves like mortal strike on brood lord. Crushing blows and criticals on normal strikes won’t be enough to one shot a shaman so it really is just the special moves you have to worry about. The thrash ability for the drakes is exempt from this because it’s 3 attacks, and you only really need to make sure one of them isn’t a crit in order to survive. The abilities that can one shot a shaman tank are few and far between and for me, and I’d argue for many others, that doesn’t disqualify Shaman from viability. Typically you only run one tank who can survive everything per raid anyway, so there are obviously a multitude of ways around those mechanics. Taunt swaps for those abilities are actually quite simple. The only thing you can’t work around as a shaman is a boss immune to taunt landing a crit with a special ability, and those are few and far between. I don’t think that disqualifies shaman from tanking in raid when that happens at less than 5% chance per swing, and only on a small minority of bosses. Even if I do get one shot, it doesn’t guarantee a wipe, just like the tank dying in that broodlord log didn’t guarantee a wipe.
In short, main tank all bosses? Definitely a no. Main tank some bosses, off tank others, and tank trash? Absolutely, that’s the niche, you don’t need shaman to main tank nef or KT or even patchwerk. But they can main tank most encounters in each raid. They can tank adds or kite on the fights they can’t. And as far as my math goes, I’m definitely seeing our threat generation and mitigation as high enough to possibly take some hatefuls on patchwerk. It’s doable, it’s very niche, understanding said niche is where the challenge truly lies.