Cough cough
I’ll continue to call out shoddy guides and worse advice for the crap it is. Shaman are not Tanks, and it is as simple as that.
Stoneskin and grace of air totem, a shield, and mail is enough to mitigate any melee situation, respective elemental resistance totem, with strength of earth, can mitigate any any caster npc. Change my mind!
I’ll continue to call out shoddy guides and worse advice for the crap it is. Shaman are not Tanks, and it is as simple as that.
Show us on the doll where the shaman tank touched you…
Our guild’s MT is a shaman. He’s fine. And he’s not even following all of Caperfin’s suggestions for threat.
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No it isnt.
Hey that’s me 
Some proof if you were interested. Not very high quality, just posted because a lot of people don’t believe shaman tanking is not only possible, but pretty darn good. I’m one of our tanks, in this raid I tanked half the bosses, but I have main tanked every boss in MC and Ony in the other videos.
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You misquoted me, I never said that.
That being said, your video shows an inferior tank (shaman) in a raid thats been on farm for 4 months now and people did progression on at lv 58 in quest greens.
No shaman is the “main tank” of their guild (which is what i did say) when warriors exist in the thousands on every sever. You can even tank some fights due to having mana and exploding.
You have to hit the little dropdown button on the top right. The quote thing is really weird, how it shows that I said “Our guild’s MT is a shaman” now in your post. Check the other vids from our first clears of MC months ago 
I was tanking bosses in our second guild run in early november.
- Stoneskin Totem: 36 damage reduction (30 * 120% from 2/2 Guardian Totems)
- Grace of Air Totem: 88.55 Agility (77 * 115% from 2/2 Enhancing Totems)
These are available to any Tank, aside from Paladins obviously, and shouldn’t be counted in any comparison between Tanks for efficacy. Furthermore, Stoneskin Totem is simply too weak to mitigate effectively to compensate.
This sadly doesn’t cut it. Plate at the entry level for raiding has 55.69% more base Armor than Mail. Comparing T1, it is a 76.34% difference, and it only gets worse. Mitigation from Armor is approximately linear, but not quite, so there is some diminishing return at the upper end, but we’re talking very large gulfs to bridge that Warriors and Paladins don’t have to bother with just for Shaman to step up.
Then you have to account for differences in defensive skills and talents. Warriors get Defensive Stance which is a flat 10% damage reduction on top of everything else they take. Stoneskin Totem could only approximate that if the incoming hit was less than 400 damage… which is… well… pathetic and small and not what you encounter in a Raid. Further you have to consider the Armor difference so if the Shaman is only taking 400 before Stoneskin, the other Tanks are already taking less.
Simply put, you’re citing to totems that can benefit the entire party. A Paladin isn’t a uniquely useful or powerful Tank because of an aura for the same reason, and needs independent talents and skills to get the job done. Paladins lack these and also scale poorly with incoming damage in a way that Druids and Warriors do not.
Yes, Shaman get a 10% Armor buff and access to additional base Avoidance, but so do Warriors. Druids get a free Flask of the Titans for just shifting into Dire Bear Form and then get another 20% Stamina to boot, outpacing everyone by miles on EH. Paladins are superb at AoE Tanking and eating lots of light hits better than anyone due to superior Block mechanics, but suffer the most from the lack of complete Tanking tools.
Shaman are simply outclassed in every possible way and a Shadow Priest’s Shadowform provides nearly as much mitigation for “tanking” as the entire Enhancement toolkit. It just isn’t even close.
I wouldn’t follow anything that Caperfin suggests as I don’t think he has done a shred of modeling or calculation at any point. That being said, Molten Core is the lightest duty raid in which the differences between Shaman and literally any other Tank is at the least. Moving forward with every tier, Warriors and Druids will climb ever higher in both TPS and EH, Paladins will languish, and everyone else will outright drop out.
I wouldn’t follow anything that Caperfin suggests as I don’t think he has done a shred of modeling or calculation at any point.
The amount of calculation and maths that man has done, he could have sent someone to the moon. He’s also tanked all through Naxx in private servers, and due to how batching & classic mechanics work we benefit even more Sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board because you clearly don’t understand shaman tanking. Your understanding of vanilla is unfortunately archaic. I encourage you to hop on the shaman tanking discord where much of this stuff is discussed at length.
And yet he’s not demonstrated it at all. Have you seen the comparisons he’s made between Ferals and Shaman showing nearly equal Armor and Health values?
I could not care less about p-server wonkiness. It isn’t Vanilla, and it isn’t Classic. I’ve seen the stupidity of poorly coded bosses who just… don’t behave properly. I’ve seen the stacking of buffs that shouldn’t stack, modified debuff limits, deliberately altered boss armor, avoidance, and resistances, etc.
If Caperfin can’t establish a single equation and simply post it here or in his guide or in his spreadsheet, I’ll pass on subjective discussions. I get the p-server crowd is super tight with one another but you’re not going to convince me or any other serious theorycrafter of any accolades associated with a borked baseline system.
It is the equivalent of saying I should trust the civil engineering suggestions of someone who has extensively played bridge building games and CAD programs, over a credentialed PE.
you’re not going to convince me or any other serious theorycrafter of any accolades associated with a borked baseline system.
Yeesh. Alright man. We’ll keep doing our thing. I hope the next time you think, “Oh that guy is so closed minded”, you can see the irony. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday homie.
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Talk about taking a game too seriously 
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How hard is it to justify a stat weight? How hard is it to post up the set someone used to come to a total stat conclusion? Why is it that when any of you are asked to substantiate anything, you just… don’t?
I don’t get why p-server theorycrafters are so much different than those that actually did the work on Retail for the last decade. None of you hold a candle to the work of Arielle, Reesi, Toskk, Theck, Landsoul, Devium, etc. I couldn’t care less if you and your guild want to meme-spec your way to victory, more power to you.
But when someone puts together a guide and makes grand statements that are not and cannot be supported by anything they actually provide, I have a problem. I strongly dislike false information, particularly when it leads to very terrible results. If someone posted a Protection Warrior DPS guide for giggles, neat, but if the guide says “And if played correctly and with the right consumables, you can compete with everyone too!” then you had better bring receipts or you’re just flatly lying to people based on unsubstantiated junk.
Don’t lie then. It really isn’t that hard. Caperfin has been dodging for days and shown a complete lack of understanding on how to even do a basic comparison between classes. His whole premise seems to hinge on “you can make just about anything work” but it is dressed up with numbers he doesn’t calculate, formulas he never cites, and spreadsheets that don’t actually determine anything.
Nobody owes you anything. I offered invites to the shaman tanking discord where you can find a lot of this information and discussion, but that may be a bad idea. Also a vid of running MC where you can see my threat generation is pretty great considering I’m pretty bad when it comes to skills management and game knowledge.
I didn’t read the thread so I’m not sure what information was promised, but will probably be a better discussion in discord, otherwise a post that seems simple “how do you generate XYZ threat” or “how do you have XYZ effective HP” can take hours to explain.
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Then don’t push crap advice and worse guides.
Sorry but given how you and the others act on here, discussing anything other than the math doesn’t interest me. Post it or go away.
I know how all of that works, like the theorycrafters I named, I also put in the work throughout Retail, and like them, also have a namesake item in game. All I requested was a justification for stat weights and the sets used to “prove” Shaman can hit similar stats to a Feral. That’s it. Caperfin has been dodging that point for a while.
Does want information, doesn’t want information. I don’t have time to write up a thesis paper.
You’re offering basics like threat production. C’mon man…
If it’s simple, what are all of the ways shamans produce threat. I’ll give you a hint, we have around 10-20 or so different ways ranging simple to ridiculous and complex.
As an example, hot swapping to a +30 sp staff of dominance between boss auto attacks to cast earth shock.
/facepalm
You’re confusing rotation options with complexity, and that’s not what I’m asking. I can look at Earth Shock, see the 200% threat modifier based on damage, look at the SP coefficient, etc.
I’m asking for the math done. If you’re going to argue that SP has X value and Spell Crit has Y value, I want to see the justification for it, and the modeled rotation used.
Which would cancel autos and incur a GCD. This is why I would want to see your math, because this seems to be a profoundly bad idea.
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I lvled with shammy tanks uncommonly 12-40, one time I had a shammy tank in ZF, was fine as long as we pulled small packs.