With the attitude I see coming from traditional tanks lately in their charging of gold for runs or making snide remarks about how they refuse to tank for pugs,
I welcome you shaman and warlock tanks in my runs come Lich King. If you can get the job done, then that’s viable enough as far as I’m concerned.
With LFD probably shipping at launch, or near enough, you won’t be welcoming anyone other than whatever random traditional Tank you’re given.
Also traditional Warlock Tanking isn’t a thing in WotLK. Metamorphosis is a 30s buff on a 3min CD. With a Glyph you can go from 30s to 36s, and the CD can be talented from 3min down to 2min 6sec., but that still gives you less than 25% uptime on the Warlock “Tank” ability.
In Cata, you lose the talent that reduces the CD outright and gain less Stamina overall while also losing Soul Link and Master Demonologist talents.
PuGs can make a Tank’s life rather miserable, which is why Tanks like sticking with folks they know, especially when the runs themselves provide little/no benefit to the Tank themselves.
Just like shaman tanking, warlock tanking isn’t a thing in general. It’s up to each individual shaman and warlock if they want to engage in it. What I’m saying is metamorphosis opens it up for the loks come Lich King, which some did originally, and I know the more dedicated loks are going to try it again.
None of which helps me at all in my current situation.
Correct.
Incorrect. Metamorphosis turns a Warlock into a low geared Tank for all of 36s, which is useful for 5mans but little else.
Make friends with more Tanks, or roll one yourself.
I never implied they would be able to main tank heroic halls of reflection.
But who knows…
/giggle
You guys say things like:
But when pushed back you immediately caveat and dissemble. If they can’t do even 5man content, then I’m not sure what kind of opportunities are being “opened up” at all. I’m just pushing back because grand-ish statements get trotted out but it is like you guys just feel the need to be optimistic and hopeful for the sake of optimism and hope.
So far it sounds to me like viable is correctly used when saying shamans can tank then.
If there is a different minimum bar you’d like to establish going forward, that’d be cool too.
Not sure where you got that from.
To me it really came off as a “Hey, i worked hard at a thing, and it was fun, heres proof, thoughts?”
Not sure where i saw that notion. did I miss the part where op was going
“shaman tanks needs to become mainstream”?
The point being that people are really quick to state something is viable, but they aren’t willing to explain a threshold beyond “boss died” which tells me they have no idea, don’t understand what a non-distinctive quality actually means, or just want the case to be true.
That’s why I start with the dead DPS minimum. If the person is willing to accept dead DPS as “viable”, then the conversation is over because that person (either idiotically, trollishly, or irrationally) thinks everything any person does is “viable” so that is that. I find that people don’t have a good grasp of how to stake out a position (whether it is definitions or otherwise) because they don’t want to get trapped by their own ruleset.
All I said was that metamorphosis opens up warlocks to be able tank; something I personally observed. How well and how far they can go with it is dependent on other factors. you keep taking it out of context with your application of “viable” to apply your reasoning.
Such as you are doing right now…
I suppose the minimum for where dps is concerned would be the minimum average needed to kill the boss. A dead dps is just relying on the excelling of others.
Right, which is the next step in getting to come kind of agreement of terms. To jump ahead a bit and layout what is available we have the following roles/jobs/statuses:
If there missing terms, by all means bring them up, but this more or less covers all the things someone can do as a contributing member to a raid, as well as the quality of their contribution. A key thing I do, and others should have the habit of doing, is to not treat definitions as merely interchangeable. If we come up with a definition where “Tanking” and “Kiting” are exactly synonymous, then we ought not keep using both words, but discard one entirely. Different words are used for different reasons, so if we can’t find any daylight between those reasons, then there is no difference and we can’t distinguish anything between them.
So I posit that for something to be “viable” it cannot be performed in such a way that requires “carrying” and does not require the min/max of “optimal.” Further, when considering whether someone is being carried, or is standing on their own two feet as either merely viable or they hit the jackpot of optimal, that has to be measured against the role they’re playing.
So I further posit that “Tanking” necessarily includes and/or excludes a necessary element found in “DPSing”, “Healing”, and “Kiting”, just as they all do with one another, respectively.
Finally I posit that any of the above terms require such a level of distinctiveness that it is possible to NOT achieve them while playing this game. Said differently, someone can try to Tank, fail, and always fail, because they can not meet the minimum threshold for Tanking. Likewise for DPSing, Healing, Kiting, etc.
With these in mind, there isn’t much room for SP Hunters and Tank Priests on the “viable” side of the line. Shaman can sometimes cross that line, but are typically incapable of doing so, at least regarding Tanking.
Do you see warriors coming here and posting things like this? Paladins? Druids? You don’t because they are actual tanks and its no big deal. He stated that hes been shaman tanking since Classic. Its insinuated that hes the alpha shaman-tank and we need to ask him how it’s done. To me, it just comes across as pompous and attention seeking…just like all the other threads shaman tanks make.
Then why make this post to begin with? Again, hes either looking for an ego stroking or wants to tank your next heroic/raid and wants to let all other shamans know that they too can tank.
Your not going to join a pug as a “shaman tank” and make it work. It takes possibly a full guild to be on the same page to pull this off…and that being said, with the right set up, co-ordination and luck… I would be willing to wager, ANY class could be a raid tank.
I’m like 80% this is a troll post now that I have watched the videos.
He tanks a caster mob in SCC, the SHH run looks more like a cc fest and a bad game of ping pong and last time I checked, if your tanking a mob it usually faces you…VR has his back to him 100% of the time.
The forums are a place to come and share information. You don’t get to be the judge of what’s “viable” forum content.
Maybe they should, It’s not like the plates are looking out for me anyways.
Why would he want to tank pugs or for other raid groups when he clearly has a group already?
This all seems to be deep deep levels of projecting.
Do you only make forum posts when you want attention, or your ego stroked?
You kind of answered your own question 
yes, you don’t see the Paladins and Druids making these types of posts because they have been tanking for a while. However, many can tell you that back in the day Paladins and Druids both did have to show others that they too could tank.
I made the post because conventionally it has been thought that Shamans could only tank until lvl 40 which is a far cry from the truth. That said, I am most definitely not an alpha shaman-tank. There have been many other (much better) shaman tanks now and in the past. You can see them if you look for world-first videos on youtube. I’m a very casual player that is happy to try something different. Actually, if you look at my Gruul tanking video you can see that I was clicking and did not stop clicking until a few months ago. That’s how casual I am.
Which I guess also means that in the hands of a really good player, shaman tanking could be way better 
My guild definitely does not cater to me in any special way. If I can’t do the job they will get a tank that can.
I dunno, I got more tanking time than the other off-tanks. That’s how the VR fight works? 
You got me there. Clearly he has a very slim change of tanking for any other group than the one who is used to seeing him “tank”.
Uh, ok sure.
Thats part of the issue. You can’t see how shaman “tanking” negatively effects your guild/group. Your skills, when used properly, would benefit the group/raid in a much more efficient way. IE…just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
ANY dps who doesn’t know how threat works can say the exact same thing if the healers are quick enough. My guild does kara fairly regularly and the a warlock consistantly takes hateful bolts week after week on curator…doesn’t mean warlocks make good offtanks.
The plot thickens!
For good reason too. When you look at the other classes tanking kits and compare it to whatever it is you compare it to with shamans abilities, its clear that shamans are a bad option as a tank. People tend to think that bad = don’t do it. Hence, shaman can’t tank.
If you think all tanking is taking damage in lieu of others while not dying…then I can see your point. But real tanking consists of many different things.
There it is.
I. you meant to say I
Go on. just saying nothing doesn’t really back up your point.
Literally what people say to those who want dual spec.
…nooooot really relevant. If I’m already a Tank class, I don’t need to roll one.