Shadowlands sub rogue FEEDBACK

Here is my feedback about my specs i play sub rogue for years disappointing that the class fantasy of my specs that uses finishers poison just like the other 2 specs. No different than theirs garrote to be bad Assasin rogue witch pretty dumb.
in PvE reject by most of the team “that is the scrub specs” “play meta”" play outlaw or get lost."
In many times I have to quit specs cause, raid leads told me your not pulling the numbers they expected me to pull, finally legion came and my specs was shining again with his own light, specs identification I’m NOT assassin , I’m NOT outlaw/combat, i’m SUB rogue i was in love of my specs doing good in pve not getting kick out of teams and doing competitive amount of dmg in m+, raids. AND MOST IMPORTANT THE SHADOW-THEME, that the specs bring in legion.
BFA came out and zul nerf happened witch was your mistake the specs was still doing fine, before Zul, you destroy the specs for no reason, no we are in 8.2.5 raiding content specs is fine 50% fine. m+ is not.

You could still fix it in shadowlands how?

1st-Replace backstab for gloomblade and add purple colored animation on the hand of the player when you press that ability like glowing shadow animation, like dance but on the hand of the player.

2nd-Increase the dmg or shuriken storm by 20%.

3rd-eveloping shadows increase 2sec the cooldown reduction of shadow dance it is actually (1 sec) it will make the specs more fluid in rotation aspect.

4th-add the old talent called “dirty deeds” in the position of gloomblade.
dirty deeds increase dmg by 20%on target under 35% reduce the energy cost of shadowstrike by 10 and cheapshot by 10.


Yeah right seem i been playing since vanilla but that don’t change anything of watch you saying u want sub to be what a bad assassin rogue? where you identification as spec? is not teleportation so let me guess you want ambush back cause you want to pvp, so you sub they was before cause for pvp so all specs are design for both that old customization from classic is garbage is old-school you are asking to go backward in spec cause at those ages was good but this time of the game most the specs have same utility, or more utility than sub rogue had in the old years let me guess, u want (poison) that does less dmg than assassin? u to have garrote that does less dmg than assassin? to have poison that does less dmg than assassin? really is that what you want? u want ambush that shadowstrike still 20 times better bottom line the only person who sound less reasonable in this discussion is you. you DON’T WANT SUBTLETY ROGUE … You want your BAD ASSASSIN rogue back, i hope your dreams come true and they add all you asked for pvp cause will watch post more about asking to tune up the specs cause i going to come here laugh at you saltiness over something that ATM twice better than the vanilla old sub… sub was sub in vanilla in 2004 with all the modification to all the other specs since them is not same anymore, boi use your brain.

Also 6.2.3 witch was burst of speed and all those talent preparation LOL GL i really doubt blizzard will give the monster that sub was in WOD cause specs was 2 overpowered in pvp and they Nerf it… how reasonable you are asking for specs that require minimum skill tool to destroy others to me you are another casual filth that want to reach the top of the list with the minimum effort.

Do favor to your self stay playing classic. Don’t bring your old trashcan to retail.

If they rework it along they don’t take the SHADOW-THEME of the specs that make look sexy i hope they add more shadow theme to the specs like mention before and btw gloomblade twice better than backstab against comps that have bubble aka pallys, monks cause you still dmg than even when they bubble.

ITT: 1500 player calls me a casual lol

I am a casual – I’m a casual who’s been about 1000 arena rating higher than anything you have ever sniffed.

Here are some examples of how incredible Subtlety Rogue gameplay could be prior to idiotic Legion rework specifically designed to make the spec more appealing to dummies:


ooh boy keep playing classic is where u belong <3
i don’t really care about rework a long they keep the shadow-theme and as far i concern i pve the most… all i care is the specs be able in pve and pvp with shadow theme cause make the specs look different have identity not be some bad assassin, spec.

also there a lot sub rogue 2k+ arena seem like you aren’t one those mean you can’t play the new sub rogue, i see pikaboo still play lots as sub too in his stream the specs is not that bad in pvp, i jsut pvp to get my essences to do pve with em LOL if was hardcore pvp player i would put effort on playing the specs

but this what i do:

kkthx bye


Always going to be subtlety no matter what. The flavor kids can float to whatever they want man.

I’m cool with what we do now but a few more tools would be great which it seems they are coming back with anyways.

Bringing poisons back is a great start and I hope we see garrote, gouge, dismantle, and maybe premeditate. I’d be happy with just more tools so we will see in the future bud.


The Shadow theme needs to be toned down. I signed up for Rogue to play an assassin who utilizes poisons and bleeds and controls the enemy, not a Shadow-master edgelord who forgot how to Gouge.

Some Shadow thematics are fine. It’s ok if Sub is more Shadow-focused than the other specs, but not to this extent.

I would like it if Secret Technique became baseline, but that’s it. Return Shadow Dance to one charge. Remove Nightblade and bring back Rupture. Bring back poisons and Gouge.


I have always leaned towards shadow, my fear is they will label it as a PVP only spec, and I know traditionally it has been. I do PVE most of the time and I just want them to make it viable in both. I’m playing Sub right now and do good dps overall.


What needs to happen is the traditional PvP playstyle needs to be preserved.

That means old style Shadow Dance and unpruning the basic Rogue toolkit.

Blizzard owes it to long time Subtlety players to deliver those things.

I don’t mind if newer players get talent options or cosmetic glyphs layered with that for a different playstyle as long as it doesn’t interfere in any way, shape, or form with objective number 1 which is restoring Subtlety Rogue to the masterpiece of PvP gameplay it has always been before Legion.


that pretty much what i’m panic too.

they want to roll back sub how was before legion /cry so i want to keep the shadowtheme that was before that please make feedback so we keep the cosmetic part of the sub rogue dat make everyone attractive once.

Glyphs ShadowDance: when you activate shadowdance your body turn purple" remember we were once shadow stalkers"
Glyphs Backstab :when hit backstab or gloomblade your hand start glowing purple" remember we were once shadow stalkers"

Glyph of Shuriken Storm/fan of knives: when you use fan knives/shuriken storm your weapon glow purple.


Forever Subtlety, we will make due. We will have to wait and see gents if they do some big changes but regardless of what happens. I’ll always be Subtlety in pvp and pve.

Legion destroyed almost every class but I think I feel sorry for rogues the most. No major class reworks in Shadowlands it looks like.

I’ll pour one out for the rogues tonight. Blizzard found out how to make me hate every one of my classes that I’ve played for 10+ years.

Thank god they didn’t have a problem with overwhelming class changes disrupting the player base in legion. But now they have a problem with it.


please just give subtlety normal sounding spells. Why was there a need for this edginess. Nightblade??? Rupture was fine. It’s nice to have shadow-y abilities like Shadowstep but come on. Almost everything in sub is so shadow-y


I feel like they’ve been trying to take Sub towards a sort of “spellblade” archetype to differentiate it from Sin. To be honest, I actually like the shadow theme for Sub and don’t mind it.

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I’m amazed you could follow the cadence of that post long enough to work out a reply


I’m personally of the camp that subtlety rogue should not be either a Ninja, or full blown ‘nightblade’ like dagger-spell playstyle.

What they need to do is get rid of shadow dance, give us back the effectiveness of backstab instead of replacing it with shadowstrike, allowing the return of ambush. Definitely replace night blade back with rupture. The shadow theme is nice but not in the way it’s being done, and the shadow theme is only supposed to be a light addition on the archetypal rogue toolkit

There’s a lot of ways subtlety could go, but to me the whole point of subtlety is they are masters of stealth with proficient use of deception/trickery.
This not only gave them a bit of an advantage over other rogues, but they lean more towards a thief archetype rather than some night blade using shadow magic. They are supposed to be the most perceptive and most careful, but not necessarily the experts in poisons and precision attacks (assassination) or toe-to-toe combat with good swordplay and parrying and enduring capabilities with vigor and better sprints (duelist/combat rogue before it was pigeonholed into a swashbuckler).

This is why they had access to abilities like Ghostly strike (increase dodged), improved sap (improved utility, farther range), improved stealth, stealth speed, and stealth detection, the ability to reset all their CD’s for more evasion, vanish, blind, CoS, made better use of their stealth abilities with reduced costs-- and had small chances to resist magical effects and reduce AoE damage received likely from having better footing and their affinity for guile that make them operate exceptionally in the shadows.

But some of those ideas are a bit archaic as they’ve decided to make everything subtlety represented pretty much baseline to the rest of the rogue class, and then started to emphasize on shadow dance, shadow blades, night blade, symbols of death-- etc.

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I legitimately laugh at these suggestions, clearly nobody here has ever played sub when it was good.

1 Shadow dance charge. Remove the mastery nerf in pvp. Give us poisons.



Don’t forget about Gouge my mans.


This is going too far.

Shadow Dance was easily the most exciting and interesting dps cooldown in the game. The issue became when it was redesigned to be the entire basis of the rotation and gameplay, rather than a burst of awesomeness once per minute that complemented the outstanding classic Rogue toolkit and rotation.

The Shadow Dance charges, and more importantly cooldown reduction mechanic, should be removed in returning to a static 1min CD Dance. This accomplishes:

  1. Reducing the Dance uptime to let classic Rogue abilities like Gouge, Crippling Poison, and Shiv shine in controlling the battlefield rather than relying on one dimensional Cheap Shot spam.

  2. Find Weakness baseline and buffed appropriately for a 1min Dance playstyle. That creates interactivity with our core mechanic, Stealth, for creating burst windows.

Subtlety is at its best as a control spec that picks moments for devastating single target burst. The 1min CD of Shadow Dance is important for the pacing of the spec and the way it creates its windows.

Finally, a note about “rotational” Shadow Dance. This didn’t make the rotation more interesting, it made Shadow Dance worse. What makes oldschool Subtlety so much fun is the management of timing created by having many finishers (slice and dice, rupture, eviscerate, kidney shot), DR categories, pooling energy, and Find Weakness windows.

Playing the spec in PvP meant managing the timings of all those things, and the way they interacted with each other was extremely satisfying.

But the current “rotational Dance” design has removed the things that made the rotation interesting outside of Dance, while also making Dance itself much, much less exciting. This has been a terrible recipe.

They should consider a passive that lets Rogues restealth in PvE without completely dropping combat. Or use PvE traits, legendaries, or some specific system to lower Vanish CD in PvE to allow more frequent Find Weakness application. The key is that there is the variety between the classic Rogue toolkit and rotation, and Shadow Dance as an exciting moment of different possibilities. Both interact with Find Weakness (Stealth), energy, and combo points to control the delivery of our damage and crowd control in ways that create two separate but connected phases in a larger cycle.

The only thing I can think of from Legion and BFA that isn’t altogether terrible is the 2nd charge for Shadowstep. I think that’s a fine design and doesn’t create the same degenerate side effects with the current charge (and CDR) design for “rotational shadow dance”. Assuming going forward that Feint isn’t a spammable shield wall, considering whether Preparation is coming back, and assuming that other classes are getting back tools as well. Then you have to properly evaluate the ability and understand that its value doesn’t scale with encounter length and the real value is that is it allows you to sit on a charge in your pocket without losing the value of regenerating the cooldown. In other words, the charge mechanic interacts in a different and far less disruptive way with our mobility (step) than it does with Dance.

Finally a note about Burst of Speed (since I’m on the topic of mobility) for the few fans you hear mentioning it. You will have to understand that this ability while not preferred over Shadowstep in competitive arena play was still too good in more casual PvP. With that said, it does have value in casual PvE particularly in soloing old raids and farming. You could tune the ability to retain its value in a more casual setting without creating problems in PvP. The way to do so is to preserve the ratio of its energy cost (such that it can be maintained out of combat but not in combat while maintaining a rotation) while proportionately increasing the cooldown so that it can be used less frequently, and scaling to greater energy cost per press, as a snare breaker. Thus it remains useful for out of combat zooming but not for sticking to players with little counter play. Shadowstep is ultimately a much more rewarding in combat button than BoS, BY FAR, and should be basically default for serious play.




very beautifully said