Yes, but it’s never going to go back to that. Or at least I don’t believe they’ll return to its original design.
They’ve turned the subtlety spec into the D&D shadowdancer advanced class, lacking the hide-in-plain-sight. It becomes an excuse to use abilities outside of stealth. Although admittedly it would ruin the free cheap shot uses in PVP scenarios that make it really nice, but outside of that it has no use because backstab is nerfed to make shadowstrike do the same thing.
Yes, they could have done something like make it a 6-12 second cool down where you can pop into the shadows and use a stealth ability every so often. But if they got rid of it and did something different I wouldn’t be too bothered.
Except I have. And yes, those would be a definite help they could return to, but it’s blizzard and specs always get new phases and adaptions.
My gripe is with the consensus on how people perceive the spec, and shadow dance as an excuse to use stealth abilities without the hide-in-plain-sight aspect really ruining the nature of “shadow dance” a bit, while becoming a rotational necessity, it’s not a skill the spec would need to be defined by I feel. There’s plenty of ways they can mechanically come up with new ideas to give the spec the same options without an ability called shadow dance and fulfill its functions-- except maybe lacking the ability to sap or pick pocket out of stealth.
Shadow Dance doesn’t need the extra charges. Here is why:
Boost the damage of Backstab and return Hemo. I am okay with Gloomblade staying as it is really a replacement for Backstab.
Reduce the CD on shadowblades if the goal is to boost Sub’s sustained damage for PVE.
Vanish will be used as a CD again as a “second charge”. But it is better balanced because vanish is powerful in many other ways, so this is more balanced.
Blizz has a hard time balancing multiple charges of shadow dance for PVE and PVP which makes the spec really feel lousy outside of it.
In the past Sub wasn’t known for doing much outside of shadow dance. But you still had the opporunity to pool energy for backstabs or strategically use Hemo to build combo points and conserve energy.
Currently what BFA Sub Rogue feels like it took the worst part of Sub Rogue and left out all the good parts. Sub in Cata had great sustain and good burst. Sub in WotLK had average sustain, but solid burst. And in MoP Sub had good sustain but great burst. WoD was probably the last expansion where Sub had very weak sustain but it was very, very strong with burst when everything lined up.
I think the thing people forget is that every spec needs not only a gameplay niche, it needs a fantasy niche. The whole point about “spec fantasy”, while it has been used to pigeonhole certain specs and remove classwide utility, isn’t entirely a garbage concept - every spec needs to be fundamentally different in certain ways.
Personally I think the sub gameplay rework was fine in Legion, but the shadow elements weren’t. Rogues have always been a class that relied on trickery and misdirection rather than magic, and suddenly turning subtlety into a shadow magic user feels wrong, and feels like it detracts from the idea that rogues are skillful spies and assassins. Shadowstep isn’t sleight of hand anymore, it’s just…magic. That’s lame.
With that said…the Legion rework was passable in terms of gameplay. BfA stripped down everything that made the spec flow properly and left it with the bare bones.
Without Goremaw’s Bite, Feeding Frenzy, Akaari’s Soul, Shadow Nova, DfA…the spec’s burst windows are just so much weaker. The thing that defined Sub’s gameplay was short, potent burst windows that could be entered at the player’s discretion. So why have those burst windows been so neutered?
Can someone explain to me the issue with the whole shadow theme surrounding the sub spec? I’ve seen a few people mention now the aspect of rogues relying on trickery and the like so I’m honestly just getting more confused as I read the opinions here from an aesthetic point of view.
Other than shadowblades Sub in the past didn’t utilize 'shadow damage". Sure there was CloS, Shadow Step and Shadow Dance but those abilities revolve around stealth mechanics, mobility and defensive utility.
However, traditionally Sub’s damage was around Find Weakness armor pen, bleeds and poisons.
By making Sub Rogue’s damage themed around shadow damage (eg Nightlbade) it made Sub Rogues feel like a non Rogue and more like a melee lock or a melee shadow priest.
For example at some point in time Sub’s Nightblade was dispellable which made playing the spec feel wrong given it is not a melee affliction lock.
Also, Assaassination has been known more of as a rot spec with DoTs. Sub in BFA plays like an inferior version of Assassination Rogue while not embracing its original theme of stealth, CC, and poisons.
I think they messed up the idea of spec fantasy anyways as Sub should have had the fantasy as the Bleed spec and let Assassination focus on poisons. This is because Sub traditionally utilized garrotes, rupture, and hemo for CC or for setting up damage. Obviously there is overlap in that Assassination uses garrote and rupture as well to build momentum for DPS in various iterations.
I appreciate the comparison between subs more traditional focus on bleeds compared to just straight up poisons, it helps to put things more into perspective. Though I will say that given the overlap as you mentioned I can see reason as to why it was moved away to a shadowy theme to be more of it’s own thing.
All in all I still believe a rogue that seems to use a type of magic is fine, though I do have to admit that I could very well be biased since I’m a lover of pen and paper games and have seen plenty of spell stealing rogues before.
Still though regardless of how I feel everything you wrote up here is perfectly fair and it does help me see things in a different light, so thank you for that.
Regardless of whether people like it or not, it is an objective fact that Sub was butchered and turned into something it wasn’t. Sub had a unique play style and it already had a class fantasy.
I personally like the shadow theme. But everyone likes what they like. I’ll be keeping an eye on it for sure to see if it’s something I’d be interested come Shadowlands.
After having to experience your presence, you seems like a very unhappy person. You spew so much vitriol over your specific version of a specific spec in a 15 year old game.
I love subs so much as well, I think the only reason I continuously switch to assass just for damage, If they give sub a small boost the I think a lot more people would be fine with it.
I said it’s meaningless to throw that at somebody and not at least present a thought of your own alongside it that connects it to the thread of the conversation at that moment. Read next time.
You seem incredibly angry at people who like something you don’t. Maybe you should learn to be happy for others while also wanting something that makes you happy?
Best of luck. I’ve found that more often than not you don’t get exactly what you’re expecting with Blizzard.
Let’s take a survey from all the Rogue ALTS in this thread that dabble a little bit in Rogue while playing Paladin, Hunter, Deathknight, etc.
When did you first start playing Rogue?
How much PvP experience do you have on your Rogue?
Don’t worry little nooblings, I already pretty much know the answers because it’s quite obvious, but this will be a little demonstration for any 3rd party observers.
Don’t be shy now, speak up and tell the rest of the thread about your Rogue experience.